After two and a half years we have still not cracked this one! Mira will walk past dead stuff when on lead, but obviously most of it is encountered when she is off-lead in fields, woods or open moorland. It has been challenging to proof against this, but small things like a pigeon can usually be traded for yummy food or, more likely, squeaky ball. Big things are a different matter and we sometimes encounter dead hares and geese. I was away last week and OH was walking her when a flock of several hundred geese flew up from an adjoining field (which is always exciting ) Unfortunately they left a freshly dead one behind. She didn't quite manage to eat the whole thing - left the head and half a wing - but recall and leave it had no effect, no matter the reward/lure on offer. It is pretty hard to trump and entire goose We're a bit stuck on how to deal with this. Fortunately such a prize doesn't come along too often, but we could potentially come across a dead hare any day. Being permanently equipped with a roast chicken is not really an option, and she always prefers the hairy/feathery option anyway. Going to try a long line next. Anyone got experience of this or any other ideas on how to deal with it? Like I say it doesn't happen too often but I would prefer it not happen at all. p.s. she didn't get fed for 48 hours afterwards and strangely didn't seem to mind!
Lochan is an Olympic-standard scavenger when out off lead. She doesn't touch carcases though, she just retrieves them for me. I think training her as a gundog is what has saved me there and perhaps you could consider it with Mira? You don't need to go shooting with her, just buy yourself a couple of pheasants and rabbits from a game dealer, freeze them and use them to teach her to retrieve cold game. Works for me!
I'd say you need to train this by setting up scenarios. It's something I'm working on at the moment, so it's by no means cracked, but the way I am tackling it is putting some treats on a plastic plate, and, with dog on lead, walking towards it. If they stay at heel, they get to move closer to it - their reward. If they move out of position, I stop and wait for them to come back. If I can walk confidently up to it with the dog on the lead at heel, they get to have the plate load of treats - yummy! I then progress to walking past it - at a distance to start with and then getting closer and closer. I start off so I am between the plate and the dog, but eventually progress on to the dog being the closer one. There is lots of clicking and treating for walking past it. You have to be really confident they won't try to take it before putting them in a position where they can self reward, so be careful! The next step would be to do this with the lead dragging, starting from the beginning again. Then with a much lighter line that they don't know they're wearing, and eventually off-lead at heel. You can then start "coming across" (pre-planted) food on walks and practicing the same thing so it's not obviously on a plate. Slowly increase the value of the food. Eventually, you will have a dog that you can confidently walk to heel - on or off lead - past food on the floor. In parallel to this, I would work on strengthening my recall so she comes to you away from amazing things. I'm working on the basic Premack recall from Nando Brown. I'd explain it, but he does a much better job: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=umDpD3NfmG8 You can see from this how you can work on this so you're eventually using very high value treats - toys, whole chickens, whatever, to really, really proof your recall. Finally, I'd say that you have the keep a beady eye on her at all times during a walk, keeping her close enough that you can always see when she's heading for something particularly yummy/disgusting and get her back to you before she gets it, using the recall you have proofed to the nth degree.
Oh good lord.....a whole goose....almost! At least it was fresh,Christmas come early! I've just been thinking about my drop it/ leave it on another post today......Your recall and leave it have to be really strong to overcome the desire to eat something which to them is wonderful....mine wasn't for a long time. I walk in a big expanse of desert and there are several bone piles where wildlife have died......when Dexter was younger......he would just barrel off to them,I had to go and collect him and as I approached he would play 'keep away' whilst chomping whatever it was down,awful.After a couple of these incidents...he went on a long line .......for a long time!That way I could stand on it if he started heading off to an area I knew he would find some snacks or,if he found something I wasn't expecting and wouldn't recall I could grab the line when I got to him so he couldn't stay out of reach.....he'd swap for a sardine or I used sachets of cat food as they are really quite smelly and convenient to carry around in the sealed pouch..In our case they trumped old,dry prehistoric looking bones .So I'd definitely make use of a long line and maybe have a little sealed pack of something amazing in your pocket . Summer of 2014 we really worked on our clicker retrieve and I found that made a huge difference in these instances ......If he came upon something out of my reach he would respond to his recall and bring me the bone back and be rewarded. I really upped the anti in rewarding attention on me and making our walks entertaining so he want as easily distracted too .....lots of different toys and games and changing direction.... Hope that helps a little ....My Husband's answer was to ( ignore me,as usual and to ) pick up as many bones as Dexter could find .l..seriously back packs of the things used to come home .....
Thanks for the suggestions We do keep a close eye on her, but even when she is close we can be on top of something before we see it. We have done lots of click & reward for passing things on lead and she is generally fine with that, and she will not touch even the tastiest meaty meal in her bowl until told to, even if we leave the room. I agree we need to refresh recall, but again we have never found a reward which will trump such a find. Stuff we used when initially training recall - sardines, food pouches, chicken etc - work fine for all other circumstances but not these (fortunately rare) occurences, so its been hard to proof. I have recently been working even harder on rewarding attention on me when walking as she finds all the animal scents extremely exciting. She will retrieve her rabbit skin tuggy and play tug briefly but it doesn't excite her that much. Hide and seek she loves, but that is not always possible. I recently discovered that Perth Gundog Rescue runs training classes from time to time so we might try and get down to one of those. We did look around when she was younger but couldn't find anything near us. Plenty of shoots around but I'd rather she learnt a modicum of decorum before taking that plunge! We often get pheasants, so next time I won't pluck before freezing and see how we get on
The only thing that has ever worked with Charlie is an emergency recall - a magic word. I've built my magic word up for a couple of years now, and really, really do save it for when he has something dangerous or I think might be dangerous. Mostly that's on the beach because I often can't see what it is, and he finds rotting fish pretty much irresistible (I really worry about him eating dead fish, as I do wonder if the fish has ingested something toxic). His "leave it" works (particularly on the beach because his main obsession is the possibility I might throw a ball into water so he is extremely responsive to me) but only before he has something he views as food in his mouth. If he isn't under orders, he feels free to pick up something he views as food and I do not have a cue that will get him to hand over food (unless it is frozen, in which case his 'give' cue does work), and only his emergency recall (or me throwing a dummy in the water if I'm close enough) will get him to come away from it.
Funny, I was thinking about a magic word today. I have read about training this before but never actually done it I can see it would be useful here as it is a rare occurrence; smaller 'edibles' can usually be exchanged for toy/treats
And there's always just walking up to the dog and clipping the lead on (which also means you don't wear out your recall cue when there is little chance of the dog responding).
Charlie would leg it at a billion miles an hour if I walked towards him when he had a rotting fish! A rotting fish AND someone chasing him for it - heaven!
I've taught my dog to stay put as I walk slowly up to him, so I don't have a problem with him running off. Even if he has found something to eat. It's important not to rush and not to make an instant grab for the collar/harness. Has to be trained like everything else.... Anyway, it works for me.
Good boy, Obi! No way that would work for Charlie - although it's fine if he doesn't have anything of value. I've had to work my socks off for him not to leg it like a dervish if he has a canvas sack full of sawdust in his mouth (aka dummy), let alone a rotting fish!
The rotting fish scenario definitely presents a challenge compared to your typically more dessicated mammalian or avian carcase. Obi found a massive decaying carp once by the lake and came out of the reeds carrying it. Although I was able to walk up to him and put the lead on no problems then I had to deal with the challenge of getting him to drop the stinking thing without getting my hands near it.....not so easy. Also he wanted to roll in it. So the 'leave it and come to me' is definitely the gold standard to aim for!!!!!! Ah, Labradors
What is it with dead fish? If the fishy trophy is too big for Charlie to leg it while carrying it, he dances round it like a jack in the box! He once found a decomposing harbour porpoise which he rolled and rolled and rolled in...I had to stop the landrover on the way home in order to be sick, the smell was so bad. Charlie was panting happily in the back, drinking in the stench, watching me in amusement.....
Oh my goodness.....there are times when I'm glad I live a good thousand kilometres from the nearest ocean!
Yes Mira, getting anywhere near her when she has something this desirable is nigh on impossible Have tried gradually sidling up, but as soon as we step into the exclusion zone she prances off with it to a safe distance. She definitely values these large fresh trophies much more than desiccated scraps of bone & fur/feathers. I can imagine the porpoise stench Julie. We have had dead whale rolling and, worst so far, dead gannet rolling. We had an hour in the car after that one...
When trying to approach a dog with a dead delicacy it can help to act like you think the dog is incredibly clever for finding it and that you're absolutely thrilled for them and want to share in and celebrate their joy at locating said object. I found that helped in the early stages of training my dog not to nick off as soon as I looked at him. Also swapping for a large handful of treats once you get there. Not saying this will work for all dogs, but maybe some..... It's certainly not an easy situation to manage!
We don't have a proofed "Leave it". Fantastic in the house, but not really worked hard enough outside. Don't know if anyone remembers Lilly "aquiring" a small hen pheasant a couple of years ago. (she plucked it out the air as it and its siblings were trying to evade her chase). This story is going somewhere, honest...... Well after she finished tossing it around for a while and playing keep away she actually brought it to me and dropped it almost proudly. This was after I started to ignore her and just continued my walk. I couldn't work out how to dispose of it so she wouldn't run back for it or find it next day when I was maybe in more of a hurry. In the end I let her carry it back home. She never, never does that with anything (the carrying). The point is, I think that in Lilly's case, if I had the time and the inclination to do gundog training with her, I think it would be beneficial for some of her more wayward traits. Exploit the natural instincts to work to our advantage. I see some parallels perhaps with Mira here? I would go for it if you have the time to do so. PS - passed by Birnam and skirted past Kirrie the other weekend - I could well have passed you on the road, think it was the weekend you posted about your walk!
