ok. so. this has the potential to be a long, long, long rambling post, but i will do my very very best to keep it from being so. i posted once, several months ago, about my concern over orion growling at family members if they came too close to us while we were sitting on the sofa. the advice i received was very good, and that behavior actually resolved itself once the kids returned to school and orion was able to nap during the day (leading to the assumption he was cranky and tired, since the episodes were always in the evening at the end of a long day of play and romping and NO naps). orion is now 10.5 months old. over the last hmm... month or so, i've noticed he will growl at what seems to be the most completely random moments - in situations he was quite happy to be in. for example, my son had a birthday party this past weekend (turned 13). we had quite a few people here, ranging in age from his friends (other 13-year-olds) up to grandmothers. orion had not spent a lot of time with any of these people before except one of jacob's friends. as people arrived, orion ran to greet them (nicely, for the most part, whew - paws on the floor!), wagging his tail happily, relaxed and alert, nosing their hands, accepting their pats of greeting, quite delighted to say hello. as the party wore on, however, when the same people would reach out and pet him (no bone or food involved), he would crouch down slightly, tail down and under a bit, ears back and down, and look up at them and growl in his throat (no hackles, no teeth, no lip-baring). it startled me, and i was very confused by it. it happened several times, so i called him away and settled him elsewhere with a rawhide chew and asked folks to leave him be for the time being. however, when two of those same people stopped by yesterday (one-on-one situation), he ran to greet them happily and showed no sign of fear or growling. however, it's nagged at me, so today i did some research (my worry was that he was showing signs of aggression/protectiveness)... and what i found seems to point to FEAR, not aggression. i found several visual presentations of "dog body language," and he is a perfect match for the "fearful/scared" dog body language description. i also found this link: http://www.aspca.org/pet-care/virtual-pet-behaviorist/dog-behavior/canine-body-language pertinent bits from the link: "Your dog will also raise his ears up and forward when he’s feeling aggressive. If your dog has his ears pulled back slightly, he’s signalling his intention to be friendly. If his ears are completely flattened or stuck out to the sides of his head, he’s signalling that he’s frightened or feeling submissive." <-- orion's ears are flat and back when he has his scared growl phases like at the party - not up and forward. "If your dog feels nervous or submissive, he’ll hold his tail lower and might even tuck it between his rear legs. He may still wag it from side to side, often at a more rapid pace than if he’s relaxed. If he’s really scared or feeling extremely submissive, he’ll hold his tail tucked up tight against his belly." <-- his tail was under "When your dog is scared, he’ll be hunched as though trying to look small. He might lower his body or even cower on the ground. His head will be held low as well. If he’s frightened by something or someone, he’ll recoil away from it. For instance, if your dog is scared on an examination table, he’ll pull away from the veterinarian and lean into you. If your dog is uncertain but curious about something, he might approach it tentatively, with his weight centered over his rear legs so that he can retreat quickly if he needs to." <-- spot-on "An angry, aggressive dog also makes himself appear larger than life to be as intimidating as possible. If your dog is aggressive, he’ll look very similar to an assertive, alert or aroused dog, but his posture will be accompanied by aggressive threats. Typically, his weight will be centered over his front legs so that he can lunge or charge forward rapidly." <-- not at all the case i am wondering if this somehow ties into the second fear period - specifically, i have read that (during this second fear period), "Reactivity levels rise during this stage causing the dog to act defensively, become protective and more territorial. Owners often report the fear seems to pop out of no where. Dogs appear fearful of novel stimuli or stimuli met before but that did not trigger significant reactions." (all emphasis above is mine) do you think this is the case? if so, is it best for me to continue to expose him to new situations/people, but to monitor him and call him away/distract him if he seems to be becoming overwhelmed? was it just overstimulation?
Re: fear/submission and growling Since you've had him, how many times has he been exposed to similar situations - eg a lot of people in the house, wanting to pet him? And when were they eg in the first month, very recently etc?
Re: fear/submission and growling [quote author=JulieT link=topic=8117.msg114546#msg114546 date=1412357311] Since you've had him, how many times has he been exposed to similar situations - eg a lot of people in the house, wanting to pet him? And when were they eg in the first month, very recently etc? [/quote] a good question... i had to think about it a moment. honestly, since we got him, we have not had that many people in the house ever.... we don't often entertain. jacob has friends over for sleepovers, but only one at a time... same for my daughter..... the only other time we have had multiple people in the house was mother's day sunday in may, when my mother, mother-in-law, sister-in-law, and her 16-year-old daughter all came for luncheon... but it was a very calm, sedate affair. he was 6 months old then and no one really bothered much with him as far as petting randomly after the initial greeting. edited to add: there was also one other time when our preacher's wife and a friend of hers stopped by completely unexpectedly at 8 pm on a school night (!!!) and orion didn't like how she kept petting him while he was gnawing on his rawhide chew... plus her voice is very high and very loud, and he did not like it at all.
Re: fear/submission and growling That's probably it then . I often think this when I see people refer to this "second fear phase". It usually boils down to the dog is encountering either something they have not been socialised to as a small pup, or something they were socialised to but then there was a big gap. So, now you know that he might not be that comfortable with a lot of people in the house, take it slow, and get him used to it gradually. Not too many people at once, lots of treats, let him approach them etc etc. Charlie's thing was animal statues. : I just missed them when he was small. We soon got over it by visiting lots of stone animal statues and finding out they produced sea biscuits from the front of their paws. He was soon peeing on them without a care in the world. :
Re: fear/submission and growling Not that I mean your boy should pee on your house guests! Sorry! I didn't mean that at all! ;D ;D ;D
Re: fear/submission and growling also, from another site: Signs of a fearful dog: Ears Laid back flat and low on head. Eyes Narrowed, averted. Possibly rolled back in head, whites showing. Mouth/ Teeth Lips drawn back to expose teeth. Body Tense. Crouched low in submissive position. Shivering, trembling. Possible secretion from anal scent glands. Tail Down between legs. Vocali- zation Low, worried yelp, whine, or growl. that's it, exactly!
Re: fear/submission and growling [quote author=JulieT link=topic=8117.msg114550#msg114550 date=1412358188] Not that I mean your boy should pee on your house guests! Sorry! I didn't mean that at all! ;D ;D ;D [/quote] HYSTERICS. I LOVE IT. "yes, yes, come right in... yes. here are some rubber boots... why do you need them, you ask? you'll soon find out..." LOL!!! thanks for the reassuring input... i suspected that was the case, but as we live in a very rural area, we simply don't have many houseguests! i'll start working on it with some PRIMO treats that only magically appear when the guests arrive!!!! *still laughing*
Re: fear/submission and growling The posture you're describing is definitely one of fear and uncertainty. But pushing a dog beyond that can make them feel that they have to make their point for forcefully. At the moment his behaviour is a polite 'I'm not comfortable with what you are doing so please leave me alone'. Nothing wrong with that, perfectly ok. But you don't want him to have to escalate that. You want to help him out by knowing his limits (you know more about that now) and not pushing him too far beyond them. That involves protecting him from people who ignore his polite request and continue to invade his space. Also it means removing him from situations that are starting to become a bit overwhelming. Removing him from situations doesn't always mean physically taking him right away - it might just mean one of you taking charge of him and having him on lead at a greater distance, getting treats for looking more relaxed. Also making sure the other people on the scene know not to touch or stare. Maybe after a certain point in the evening (when his powers of concentration are beginning to wane and his capacity to cope is dropping) tie a yellow ribbon round his neck and let everyone know that from this point on no-one but no-one is to touch or look at him (forewarn them at the start of the party). Or maybe at times he just needs some time alone in a different quiet room with a chew toy.
Re: fear/submission and growling [quote author=Oberon link=topic=8117.msg114565#msg114565 date=1412360895] The posture you're describing is definitely one of fear and uncertainty. But pushing a dog beyond that can make them feel that they have to make their point for forcefully. At the moment his behaviour is a polite 'I'm not comfortable with what you are doing so please leave me alone'. Nothing wrong with that, perfectly ok. But you don't want him to have to escalate that. You want to help him out by knowing his limits (you know more about that now) and not pushing him too far beyond them. That involves protecting him from people who ignore his polite request and continue to invade his space. Also it means removing him from situations that are starting to become a bit overwhelming. Removing him from situations doesn't always mean physically taking him right away - it might just mean one of you taking charge of him and having him on lead at a greater distance, getting treats for looking more relaxed. Also making sure the other people on the scene know not to touch or stare. Maybe after a certain point in the evening (when his powers of concentration are beginning to wane and his capacity to cope is dropping) tie a yellow ribbon round his neck and let everyone know that from this point on no-one but no-one is to touch or look at him (forewarn them at the start of the party). Or maybe at times he just needs some time alone in a different quiet room with a chew toy. [/quote] that's a great idea! (re: the ribbon) i would not have thought of that... i could put on one of his bandanas (red one, perhaps? ;D) and remind everyone that's the cue to leave him be and let him decompress and sort of reset himself. my worry is exactly as you said - i do not want him feeling like we're "ignoring" his polite warnings and forcing him past what he is comfortable with because then he will simply stop growling and go right to Step 2, which no one wants!!! it makes me feel ever so much better to see that it truly is not an aggression issue - simply one of fear or overwhelming response or overstimulation. as i told my husband, it's easy to forget he's "only" 10 months old (at 80 pounds, it's VERY easy to forget!).... and we have to remember he CAN and WILL be overwhelmed in new and busy social situations like that. my daughter's birthday party is coming up in november, so i will be trying this out then.... and hopefully it will help him to feel more secure and like we are listening to him/his needs.
Re: fear/submission and growling That sounds good I'd also assign an adult to be his bodyguard for the duration of the party to make sure he has his space from guests, to enforce the 'red bandanna = no interaction' rule and to give him treats when he's showing calm behaviour. I really would very, very strongly recommend that - the bodyguard must make it their number 1 job to make sure Orion has a happy, pressure-free, growl-free experience at the party I don't know how old your daughter is but if the kids are young enough the bodyguard could wear a big badge saying 'Dog Catcher' or something. If anyone wants to pat Orion they need to ask the Dog Catcher. I definitely don't think it's aggression, it's anxiety/stress and being at the limits of his capacity for people interaction. It's good that you are taking it really seriously though. As I'm sure you know in lesser hands this could become a very serious problem. But at this point I'm confident that you will be able to avoid that Orion will thank you for it
Re: fear/submission and growling [quote author=Oberon link=topic=8117.msg114581#msg114581 date=1412364092] That sounds good I'd also assign an adult to be his bodyguard for the duration of the party to make sure he has his space from guests, to enforce the 'red bandanna = no interaction' rule and to give him treats when he's showing calm behaviour. I really would very, very strongly recommend that - the bodyguard must make it their number 1 job to make sure Orion has a happy, pressure-free, growl-free experience at the party I don't know how old your daughter is but if the kids are young enough the bodyguard could wear a big badge saying 'Dog Catcher' or something. If anyone wants to pat Orion they need to ask the Dog Catcher. I definitely don't think it's aggression, it's anxiety/stress and being at the limits of his capacity for people interaction. It's good that you are taking it really seriously though. As I'm sure you know in lesser hands this could become a very serious problem. But at this point I'm confident that you will be able to avoid that Orion will thank you for it [/quote] i am loving the "dog catcher" badge idea! my daughter will be turning 10, so it'll be a cute idea and all the kids will like it... and since orion is my shadow, i guess that makes me the de facto bodyguard!!! we will even post a little sign on the outside door that asks the entering kids to please ask the Dog Catcher's permission before petting the excited puppy. what makes it even better is that her party theme is dogs!!!! so i will fit right into the theme! ;D you have truly lifted a BIG load off me - both of you - thank you!
