Some of you have been following the debate on the Westminster showdog featured on our Facebook page recently. Slimdoggy has posted up a very good follow up article. The comparisons between Labradors 'then' and 'now' are very interesting.
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy Ive read this Pippa, yes it is very interesting, shows quite bad practices, with showing dogs. I looked at the old photo of the healthy dog, slim and trim, and thought that is just how Otis is, and it is my duty to keep him healthy and trim, which really isnt hard as all that Im sure . Lots of overweight dogs out there, and what is the norm, and healthy, could be being distorted by these bad show practices, so it seems, Thanks, Pippa x
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy This was really interesting to read. I always get asked if Harley is a full lab as she is slight in build. It is sad when out walking the amount of overweight dogs ;(
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy Interesting.....and amazing that everyone was in agreement! I tend not to read all the comments on the labsite posts these days - apart from them being too many, well, they aren't nice. This was a breath of fresh air.
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy Excellent read and makes clear that modern show dogs are not the epitome of their breed standard any more
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy Good articles. The pics of the BOB winners are quite disconcerting. Not healthy or attractive. So disappointing to see dogs like that being awarded.
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy Very good articles indeed , the dogs look very overweight to me , poor things
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy It was a more balanced article. To make it more balanced, it would have been good to have also shown pictures of dogs from show lines that do not look like the Chocolate labrador pictured. Here are some, for example: http://www.warringah.org.uk/showing.htm Here's some more: http://www.oakhouselabradors.co.uk/index.php/show-dogs
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy Benson comes from showdog lines..he is a Carpenny chocolate lab. I just assumed that show dog lines meant he would be healthy..now after reading that article am not so sure the way the breed has changed over the years is really shocking! Does this account for the increase in prevalence of HD in labradors? Apparently what considered as "average" in hip scores has increased..but granted I may have misread that! Benson is definitely is going to be a different build than the working labs of a similar age that I have seen with a much chunkier build. Indeed I have had comments already that am I sure he is a Labrador? The breeder was very proud of his "chunky" build, I just thought well all puppies are a bit chunky? Benson isn't at all fat, but a very muscular build and slightly squat.
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy [quote author=Beanwood link=topic=4493.msg55054#msg55054 date=1392717295] Does this account for the increase in prevalence of HD in labradors? Apparently what considered as "average" in hip scores has increased..but granted I may have misread that! [/quote] There was a discussion of some data on the forum recently, and we did not see an increase in the prevalence of HD in labradors - at least on the data we were looking at, although we did have a lot of questions about the data. We did see a decrease, although it wasn't dramatic. From memory, I think we saw figures of 8% of labradors with HD, which was a decrease from the past. If you search, you will find the thread with links to the data. When I was buying a showline dog, I was very happy with the quality of health information available, and the number of dogs I had to choose from with 0 elbow scores and 0 and single digit hips scores. I don't know what I would have found if I was looking for a working line dog, maybe exactly the same. Keep Benson nice and slim (which is good advice for any dog) and try not to worry. I would also read a few more articles than the one posted on slimdoggy.
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy Thank you Julie T , I guess I was a bit shocked by how the labrador retriever has changed over the years in respect of the showbench. Benson has very good elbow and hip scores, one thing we looked very carefully at, and we had the pleasure of watching mum and dad playing and running around in a paddock.
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy [quote author=Beanwood link=topic=4493.msg55123#msg55123 date=1392737880] I guess I was a bit shocked by how the labrador retriever has changed over the years in respect of the showbench. [/quote] Both show and working lines have changed over the years. There are quite a few articles around on this subject, which are very interesting. I like the opinions expressed in this article (I forget who pointed me to this now, but it was someone on the forum http://www.wylanbriar.com/our-stories/articles-published/chocolate-labrador/ "Just being lean does not mean a dog is healthy. Just being heavier of build does not mean a dog is unhealthy. Carrying too much weight for its own structure makes a dog unhealthy and that can be seen, not only in the show-ring, but as often in the working type in a thousand pet homes every day. The idea, for example that working bred Labradors have a better record of joint health, hip and elbow results etc does not play out at all. Infact there are good and bad in every body shape of the breed." (The article is about Choc labs, but all of it is interesting).
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy As Julie mentioned above, there are plenty of show lines with dogs that are moderate in build (i.e. that do look solid but athletic, not like beached whales) and that do extremely well in the show ring and that gain titles at high levels. Not all show lines are suffering from the barrel-on-tree-stumps-with-a-Rottweiler-head affliction. In fact, in Australia at least, I'd say that most are not like that, thankfully (despite a strong but since reversed trend in the 'barrel/tree stump' direction about a decade ago).
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy This is true, in that the two types have diverged away from the dog of sixty years ago, and in different directions. The FT dog has become even leaner,and more racy in design than his multi-purpose ancestors. The show dog has become shorter legged, deeper chested, less agile and heavier coated. There are plenty of people (like me) that hanker for a more 'traditional' looking working lab. Of moderate weight and build, with the traditional Labrador head and otter tail. However, the problem with overweight show dogs (not just Labradors) being given awards in the show ring is I feel a more serious issue, than the racy FT dogs of today. Despite the fact that overweight dogs from working lines can be found, these are not generally held up for public scrutiny as perfect examples of the breed standard. Validation of fat show dogs is very public and encourages pet dog owners to embrace obesity in their pets. Many of the replies on that first facebook thread (about the first article) show that there are a lot of dog owners out there that simply don't recognise obesity in dogs as a problem, and cannot identify an obese dog when it smacks them in the face. This is not good for dogs. So whilst I agree that there are many healthy show dogs out there, I still think we need to highlight the issue of overweight show dogs, clearly not fit for function, being placed at a high level in prestigious competitions like the Westminster show.
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy [quote author=editor link=topic=4493.msg55226#msg55226 date=1392757551] So whilst I agree that there are many healthy show dogs out there, I still think we need to highlight the issue of overweight show dogs, clearly not fit for function, being placed at a high level in prestigious competitions like the Westminster show. [/quote] This is true, and right, and I agree. I don't think though that the article is a balanced take on matters - the title "When did Overweight Labs Become the New Normal?" isn't really supported, and there isn't a great deal of substance behind the points made - they are generally just assertions. I have looked 3 or 4 times, and it might be my browser or eyesight (I hesitate, to say, have I made a mistake?) but the same chocolate lab is pictured both as the Westminster 2014 Breed BOS winner and #1 Labrador in the U.S. in 1997 & 1998? Added: no, sorry, I see that it's the Westminster 2014 Breed BOS winner compared to both the historic examples.
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy [quote author=JulieT link=topic=4493.msg55227#msg55227 date=1392758315] [quote author=editor link=topic=4493.msg55226#msg55226 date=1392757551] So whilst I agree that there are many healthy show dogs out there, I still think we need to highlight the issue of overweight show dogs, clearly not fit for function, being placed at a high level in prestigious competitions like the Westminster show. [/quote] This is true, and right, and I agree. [/quote] Yes, I agree too. Completely agree. It's not just that they are fat though, they are completely exaggerated in their underlying frames (legs too short, huge ugly heads). But, yes, fat too!! And I totally agree that this contributes to the general Lab obesity you see in the street. I would just also observe that there are show breeders that are breeding moderate dogs (going by their websites and dog profiles), that are kept in a fit state (well, not like the lardy ones in the pics anyhow!) and I am sure that many of these despair at what is winning at Westminster too. It is a pity that the judges seem to overlook these healthier, better built dogs for the truly prestigious awards, in the UK at least.
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy Worth clarifying in case there is confusion, that the Westminster dog show is to the USA as Crufts is to the UK. Here's their website, for interest: http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/aboutwkc/history.html And here's last year's Crufts Best of Breed lab: http://crufts.fossedata.co.uk/Breed.asp?ShowYear=2013&GroupID=GUN&ScheduleID=130 One thing's certain, that Briggs was a handsome dog, wasn't he?
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy Thanks for that Kath, it's interesting to compare Romeo (last year's crufts winner) compared with the Westminster dog. Romeo was also criticised, especially within the shooting community, for being overweight. Yet I think he looks a much healthier looking dog than the Westminster boy. With a better length of leg too.
Re: Follow up article from Slimdoggy I remember meeting a lovely, lively, slim Lab a few times when dog walking, a few months elapsed and there was this fat dog waddling along. I asked the owner what had happened, she said that the breeder wanted her to show the dog and so he should be much fatter and to feed him up. I wasn't the only person to find this disturbing.
