As I go through the journey of Charlie's recovery, I have been told about some disadvantages of front fastening harnesses. I'm looking forward to a book on rehabilitation by Christine Zink arriving, and in looking up some of her work came across this, which I thought was interesting enough to share. I don't use a front fastening harness, but was thinking of doing so, but can't risk it with Charlie because of these reports. I do not know though, how rigorous the research is behind the reports. http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/16_7/features/the-no-pull-debate_20782-1.html In a limited gait analysis study, Dr. Zink observed that dogs wearing no-pull, front clip harnesses bore less weight on their front legs than they normally would – even when the harness wasn’t attached to a leash. In addition, the dogs bore less weight on the leg that was on the far side of where the person walked, even when there was no leash attached; when the dog had a leash attached, it was more significant. This suggests to her that the dog was reacting to the presence of the harness against the leg by pushing harder against it. In all cases, the gait of the front limbs was altered whenever the harness was on. Dr. Zink explains that these harnesses sit on top of the biceps and supraspinatus tendons, two of the most commonly injured structures in dogs’ forelimbs, particularly in canine athletes. She asserts that, just by logic, one has to assume that the pressure this kind of harness exerts on the dog’s forelimbs in an activity where the dog is supposed to be extending her forelimbs (i.e., running, walking), is not a good idea.
Re: Front fastening harnesses - altering gait Thanks for posting Julie, it's very interesting. I use a front fastening harness on Charlie with the option of using a double ended lead which I use and is supposed to stop altering the dogs gait as you guide him round towards you, but I bet some Doctor will have something to say about that, seems we can't do right from wrong with all the articles available to knock confidence in our own decisions : x
Re: Front fastening harnesses - altering gait The reports suggest it is the presence of the straps across the front which may be the problem - so I am not sure that the same wouldn't happen with a back fastening harness too. A Y shaped harness which leaves the dog's legs free may be the answer but I've never seen one with a D ring at the front. I don't know if that's because front fastening harnesses depend on the pressure across the front to work. I would like to use a front fastening harness to extend my walk range a bit into areas where Charlie isn't yet good enough on his lead but his state of excitement means progress to train is so slow. But can't until I get to the bottom of this. Anyway, I've ordered the book. The full report might be in there.
Re: Front fastening harnesses - altering gait Sorry I didn't make it very clear :, the harness I use is front and back fastening so it is dual purpose and you use a double ended lead to clip to the front and back enabling you to guide the dog round and not pull. Mine is across the chest as in the picture on your link. I have never seen a Y shaped front fastening one either as it could be the answer your right. I will look forward to your full report Julie as non of us want to do the wrong thing Thanks x
Re: Front fastening harnesses - altering gait [quote author=charlie link=topic=5122.msg64396#msg64396 date=1396031504] you use a double ended lead to clip to the front and back enabling you to guide the dog round and not pull. [/quote] The report says the effect can still be seen even when there is no lead attached at all. How significant this is isn't that clear though. There is a Y shaped front fastening harness - it's called a Walk-in-Sync (just this second found it). I'm just watching some videos of it now, so not sure about it yet. http://www.orvis.co.uk/store/product.aspx?pf_id=6y50
Re: Front fastening harnesses - altering gait The effect must have been induced by having a lead on the harness though otherwise how would the dog know which way they were going to be turned. I wonder if you alternated which side you walked your dog would the effect be diminished?
Re: Front fastening harnesses - altering gait [quote author=bbrown link=topic=5122.msg64409#msg64409 date=1396035424] I wonder if you alternated which side you walked your dog would the effect be diminished? [/quote] Some manufacturers recommend doing just this - reading these instructions were what first alerted me to the issue. Having watched some vids, stored some, and slowed them down (I can't post because they are all copyright) it really does look like dogs walking in front fastening harnesses, regardless of whether there is pressure on the lead, have a distinctly altered gait in the front legs. It's like the straps alone constrict them. I may be completely wrong about this, of course. It's not like I know a lot about this! I disagree with the recommendations on this website but it is the only video on the web that I can reference that shows a dog in a front fastening harness in slow motion. http://dogsintraining.wordpress.com/2011/03/12/positive-bias/ This harness does look like the straps are particularly low. But it is useful in terms of demonstrating the altered gait.
Re: Front fastening harnesses - altering gait Yeah, doesn't look comfortable. The harness does look very tight under the legs - not the way I've seen other front fastening harnesses fitted.
Re: Front fastening harnesses - altering gait It isn't just this particular harness though, I can see a variant of this effect on other front fastening harnesses - it's like the straps across the front muscles of the legs legs stop dogs extending their legs properly. Will try find a way to post or reference more vids. Plus have the book coming.
Re: Front fastening harnesses - altering gait Wow that looks very uncomfortable! I've never seen a front-fastening harness for sale here- which doesn't mean they aren't available, but I don't think they have "caught on" here, so it's interesting to see how they work. I'm really happy with Simba's back-fastening harness, but as I've said before, he isn't much of a puller, so I don't think it's causing any problems for him.
Re: Front fastening harnesses - altering gait Quite a few people at our dog club use them. They are a different style to the one in the video and don't look uncomfortable for the dogs (but then, most dogs are walking pretty nicely at the dog club). Will pay more attention when I'm out at the club next.
Re: Front fastening harnesses - altering gait [quote author=JulieT link=topic=5122.msg64397#msg64397 date=1396032316] [quote author=charlie link=topic=5122.msg64396#msg64396 date=1396031504] [/quote] There is a Y shaped front fastening harness - it's called a Walk-in-Sync (just this second found it). I'm just watching some videos of it now, so not sure about it yet. http://www.orvis.co.uk/store/product.aspx?pf_id=6y50 [/quote] Julie what was your conclusion on this harness after watching the video? Thanks x
Re: Front fastening harnesses - altering gait I wasn't convinced by it (the walk in sync). It's the same shape as a Y back fastening harness, but just has the D ring at the front. Any pressure on the harness tended to make it skew across the chest with the resulting pressure on the opposite shoulder. At least, that's what it looked like. Although the dogs seem to walk normally in it (Charlie walks normally in a back fastening Y shaped harness, as it leaves the legs free) I wasn't thrilled by the skewing of the harness - I thought it would lead to rubbing and I didn't like the look of the uneven pressure on the shoulders. I won't be buying one. For now, I'm back doing only the walks I managed to proof completely before the surgery. Oh well, I suppose at least I managed to proof quite a few streets at least. Could be worse.
Re: Front fastening harnesses - altering gait I watched some of the videos and am guessing they were heavily edited, but it didn't look any different to all the front fastening harnesses on the market already. Basically the same method of training stop when pulling etc. I won't be buying one either. You have done a great job proofing Charlie's walks and there are a lot more streets to go Thanks for the review
Re: Front fastening harnesses - altering gait Julie, You mentioned this altered gait to me when I saw you in January ...this is Dexter in his SENSE-ation harness : https://www.flickr.com/photos/97066992@N03/13505559274/ It fitted much better than the one in the video.Dexters wasn't so low on the legs it just came across the top of his front legs...Dexter was never ever that bad at pulling EVER....seeing the dog in the video could make me think we didn't have an issue ( not serious,we DID have an issue) I haven't got any videos I can find of Dexter running in his but he definately didn't look like that dog.I really needed it to help me....I hope I haven't done him any long term damage,he wore it for 9 months though ??? 5 of them we were following the 5 minute rule ,so I'm hoping it hasn't ....
Re: Front fastening harnesses - altering gait I can't see your vid, Angela, it links to a lovely pic of Dex looking very happy in the car. Yes, I mentioned this in Jan after I bought a front fastening harness when I had to go on a business trip, and had no choice to let OH walk Charlie - I was trying to preserve my hard work on making Charlie behave. I watched Charlie walk in it, and could clearly see that his body was constantly turned, not much a few degrees, even without pressure on the lead. Then, looking at the instructions for the harness, it said that in order to avoid damage from this, the dog should be walked on both sides of the handler (so it wasn't always walking in the same altered way). Plus then recently, we have this report of a report from Christine Zink saying straps across the top of the dog's front legs are not a good idea because it alters the gait. (http://www.caninesports.com/aboutcontact-us.html). I do not have her actual report, but have ordered her book. Maybe it's in there. In the vid I posted (and in some others I can't post) I can see both types altered gaits. First, the altered extension of the front legs, and second the skewing of the body. I do not know whether: a) this matters a jot for a healthy dog, maybe it's nothing, but worry about it for Charlie right now b) all dogs, in particular those used to wearing front fastening harnesses, do this c) all front fastening harnesses are the same or the exact positioning of the straps matters My objective in this is to see whether I can use a front fastening harness by choosing the right one. This is because I'd love to be able to walk a bit further than just the areas where I've properly proofed walking on a lead.
Re: Front fastening harnesses - altering gait It was only the photo just to show that I thought the position of the strap was higher on Dexter than on the video of that really feisty dog you posted.... I must have videos of him running somewhere,I'll have a good look this afternoon. There is a YouTube video that I don't know how to do the link for of the Sense-ation harness ......I challenge that the dogs demonstrating in the video are all walking so well just because of this harness.....it certainly didn't have that 'hallelujah' effect for us!i used it to get away from the association of 'it's ok to pull on a collar and lead ' that had been created I didn't want to use the back fastening one straight off to give him something he could really pull into.I know you are researching this for different reasons ......and with a leg injury,it's imperative you don't use something that could hinder a proper recovery x
Re: Front fastening harnesses - altering gait [quote author=Dexter link=topic=5122.msg64678#msg64678 date=1396168102] It was only the photo just to show that I thought the position of the strap was higher on Dexter than on the video of that really feisty dog you posted.... [/quote] Ok, sorry. Yes, the straps are higher. This might matter, yes. [quote author=Dexter link=topic=5122.msg64678#msg64678 date=1396168102] There is a YouTube video that I don't know how to do the link for of the Sense-ation harness ......I challenge that the dogs demonstrating in the video are all walking so well just because of this harness.....it certainly didn't have that 'hallelujah' effect for us! [/quote] I'll have a look. Charlie was very good in the front fastening harness we used. I think that this might be because he isn't a massive puller (he will pull if excited, but that's not the worst of it) and the harness was effective at stopping him turning away and lunging. It also did have the effect of keeping his attention more on the handler. But you make a very good point. Right now, it is not necessarily the case that a front fastening harness would speed my progress anymore than continuing to train in a flat collar.
Re: Front fastening harnesses - altering gait Tatze has always had a front fastening harness but she's not a puller anyway. My friend's dog, Zaba, has one and he's a puller - it's great because it pulls him in towards you rather than out away from you, if you see what I mean. Tatze's is an 'easy walk' harness and I find it fits better upside down!
