Frustrating progress of those who punish

Don't worry, I'm not considering changing training methods but it doesn't mean I don't want to whinge about how quickly people progress when using punishment!

We've had such sloooooowww progress with our stand for examination (rewarding step by step while people walk past and Ella remains in a stand stay, people stepping towards her, placing a hand near her, etc etc). Then, a leaping lunatic dog at training today (not Ella ) was introduced to SFE and wouldn't even come close to standing still with no one around. Using a punishment method, they held their hands on the loose neck skin (sort of either side of their neck, below the ears) and used it to hold the dog still while someone approached. The dog tried to move but the owner held firm and they submitted into standing still. Within five minutes, they were gently stroking below the dog's ears as someone approached and the dog didn't move a muscle, then they were able to step back and the dog remained standing still (obviously we all understand that the owner no longer needed to hold the dog as the damage was already done).

Sometimes I just wish I could see instant results!

 

Sometimes, if you are seeing really slow progress with positive reinforcement, it's because you need to change what you do. There are often loads of different ways to do things.

Just as an example, I spent a fantastic number of hours shaping Charlie to go to a target, then extending distance, and distractions....blah, blah. Took me most of a summer holiday to get some decent distance in it. I was following what is standard advice - extend difficulty slowly, set the dog up for success....

Then, one week at training there was a new student there who plonked a shed load of sardines at the bottom of a target post and had her dog running out to 50m in 20 minutes! Switched to sardines and never looked back. Then faded the sardines of course.

You could try preparing the biggest, most sardine packed difficult to eat treat Ella has ever seen, get her to shove her nose in it and then get people to handle her?

I found the same kind of thing with heel and lead walking. Billions of hours with Charlie....then did a Susan Garret course on building tug desire, got the most incredible desire to tug from Charlie, used tug to reward heel - bingo. Sorted. Ditto hand targets - always had just 'ok' through clicker training it, then found out if the treat appears instantaneously in the hand the dog is targeting, I get a MUCH strong result far, far, quicker.

So, if you are finding it slow, sometimes its worth looking around for a quicker way. Not punishment, obviously!

 

This is really interesting. Since working through Total Recall I've realised that the cues that Lucky is the most enthusiastic about are the ones where I started the training with really high values rewards, even if now I tend to only use kibble for them with occasional higher value things.

I have tried many times to get Lucky enthusiastic about retrieving, he understands the game but it has no real value to him. He likes to chase toys when they are thrown, but doesn't have any natural drive to pick the toys up once they've stopped moving. He likes to play indoors, but outdoors he isn't interested, despite me having spent a lot of time on it.

Maybe I'll try with sardines or something else really high value! I think he'd really like the game eventually, because he loves to run and use his nose to find treats - and I would like to play some more games with toys.

I do know what you mean about it taking longer with positive reinforcement, I'm pretty sure I could have an apparently "calm" dog within a couple of weeks if I used punishment. But what appears well behaved from the outside is just learned helplessness, a dog that has no confidence and isn't free to make choices - and I'd rather have a leaping lunatic than that!

 

Where would be the fun in that though? I think we gain far more from working continuously on training, finally getting the results we require and saying WHOO HOO I did it, I can do it and so can my dog

One day it will just all of a sudden click and Ella will SFE when you least expect it Keep the faith Emily because those that use punishment have fearful dogs xx

 

I am really lucky that the only dogs in training we see are the ones at puppy school and even though they are calmer than Harls, they aren't more advanced. But I can understand what you say Emily, sometimes when I am going through exactly the same thing (that I was sure we had sorted last time) with Harls I kind of sigh inside and think that it is just never going to get better.
But at the end of the day I am mastery orientated and not achievement orientated so we will just do it again tomorrow. And small improvements mean the world to me.

 

Ella is a happy dog who loves her mum though! I bet that other dog is plotting its escape and thinking how much it dislikes it's owner.

I'd rather have a happy dog than one who's perfectly trained

 

I spent last weekend on a training course, and the trainer started off by going round the group asking people to introduce themselves, saying what dog they had with them, and what problems they had/what they wanted to achieve.

After listening to everyone, the trainer said:

"Well, these problems fall into two categories. 1) Adolescence and 2) Motivation.

So you, you and you - wait for your dogs to grow up some more before expecting so much. The rest of you find better ways to motivate your dogs. Right, that's it, we can all go home".

 

Much rather have a dog who is with me and does stuff because he chooses, not because he's forced/afraid, but I get what you're saying @Emily

 

Did you really have to go home!

 

No, of course not! We spent the weekend learning how to motivate our dogs.

 

I do know of the repute of one trainer who would have done exactly that

 

In our Flyball intermediate group there's a dog whose human was using food and a tug toy as reinforcers, except the dog wasn't actually that interested so they weren't that reinforcing. I noticed that her dog perked up when she moved, so I suggested that she ditch the food and toy and just try jumping about a bit. The dog LOVES this. He's made huge progress in he training as a result - because now he cares if he gets things right or not.

Another motivation related issue that I see at training would be handlers not creating a clear enough difference in the consequence for the dog of getting it right versus not getting it right. Some people just give the dog a kind of blah response in both cases. To the dog that means that there's no real value in paying attention or trying harder (or dogs start to get a bit worried because their handler is being confusing). Usually the remedy involves the handler being 1000 times more antimated and excited when the dog 'gets it right' and in contrast saying nothing at all when the dog 'gets it wrong'. That usually works a treat, resulting in a much happier dog who is really engaged in the game and who is making faster progress.

The basic tenet of learning theory is 'behaviour that's rewarded is repeated'. So if you want more of it, REWARD it

 

Well... Im probably going to get flamed for writing this here but I have seen "balanced" training get amazing results. Very quickly and very easily. There are some very good videos on how training has evolved and sometimes not to the benefit of the dog and owner. Saying that, I think for a house pet you can absolutely train with only Positive Reinforcement but it will be slower and sometimes not as good. I think that Positive Reinforcement training is being tested for Police Dogs in Sweden but its in its introductory phase. It would be nice to see some long term results.

The bond between the person and dog is very important and I dont think setting and enforcing boundaries is such a bad thing. But this site will disagree.

 

I would totally agree with this. When I am training with Charlie if I make a big super excited "YES what a GOOD boy, whooo hoo you did it" his sheer delight is evident, his return to me is quicker for treats and of course lots of ear scratches. Hattie is the same. I keep quiet if it's not right so they do become more focused and keen to try again, get it right and reward heavily and have a play or tug A to finish on a high. Positive experiences for my dogs and me x

 

If you could give some examples of what you mean by boundaries, and the sort of balanced training you use, we might be able to suggest other training methods to set "boundaries" for your dog.

I think that the people on this site would only disagree because they want to try to encourage others to think carefully about how they train their dogs, in the hope that people will choose to use kinder methods of training. If you heard of or saw something being done to a dog that you thought was unfair to that animal, I'm sure you would also want to try to encourage the owner/trainer to rethink their methods.

Here is an article which you might find interesting: http://www.thelabradorsite.com/punishment-in-dog-training/

 

Sorry to hijack your post Emily!

I tried working on the clicker retrieve with Lucky outside the last couple of days - because the problem is getting him to pick up the ball/dummy. He likes to chase it but won't pick it up.

I picked a time on our walk where he was really engaged and wanting to do something with me. Took the ball out and clicked for touching it with his nose, and gave him an entire handful of chicken (my hands are quite small). I also do a really loud enthusiastic "yeah nice work good boy". We just did it 3 times.

Then the second day, I got the ball out and he got really excited and wanted to play the game. I did the same thing.

So, using extra generous rewards is working so far! Hopefully we can move on to picking up the ball now. Maybe I'll make a labrador out of my mutt!

 

I have had great success with something called a lotus ball in training a reluctant retriever who luckily was food motivated. The segments of the ball are held together by Velcro, you can open it up and put a bit of food inside in front of the dog. Close it and throw it. The dog learns very quickly in order to get the treat he will have to pickup the ball and bring it to you. There are all sorts of other things out there that you can use in the same manner to encourage a pick up and delivery.

 

Hijack away

 

Are these really only for food motivated dogs? Wonder if it might be worth trying with Charlie xx

 

Yes. The dog has to want to get to the food hidden in the ball for this to work.