Don't worry, I'm not considering changing training methods but it doesn't mean I don't want to whinge about how quickly people progress when using punishment! We've had such sloooooowww progress with our stand for examination (rewarding step by step while people walk past and Ella remains in a stand stay, people stepping towards her, placing a hand near her, etc etc). Then, a leaping lunatic dog at training today (not Ella ) was introduced to SFE and wouldn't even come close to standing still with no one around. Using a punishment method, they held their hands on the loose neck skin (sort of either side of their neck, below the ears) and used it to hold the dog still while someone approached. The dog tried to move but the owner held firm and they submitted into standing still. Within five minutes, they were gently stroking below the dog's ears as someone approached and the dog didn't move a muscle, then they were able to step back and the dog remained standing still (obviously we all understand that the owner no longer needed to hold the dog as the damage was already done). Sometimes I just wish I could see instant results!