Frustrating progress of those who punish

OK, it might work as I do hide bits of food in a tiny bag to do scent training with Charlie, he does bring the bag to me for the treat. A ball would be better for outside, maybe x

 

It would depend on where outside. The garden would be a good place to start.

 

Oh yes, definitely in the garden to start with. Might give it whirl, you never know Thanks Heidrun x

 

I take my pup to a Mike Ellis school. No offense but nothing here is going to be better.

 

Well off you pop then

 

One of his courses:

"Proper use of the electronic collar".

Sounds like a really good trainer

 

Yep heard about him before so sorry Im so daft I prefer our type of training. I'd just love to electrocuted my friend's.

 

PROPER USE OF THE ELECTRONIC COLLAR

"Many trainers mistakenly view the ecollar as the “bigger stick” of dog training. This course will dispel that myth and help trainers develop a sound understanding of learning theory and how it affects the use of electronic collars, as well as teach trainers to incorporate the use of this tool into primarily reward based training systems with minimal stress for the dogs. We have a very careful and conservative approach to the use of the electronic collar that will help trainers avoid many of the common pitfalls of its use."

Boggles the mind...

 

I dont think you really understand who Mike Ellis is. Also, my trainer has had many dogs and her students dogs win many competitions in Schutzhund, Rally and Obedience contests. Anyway, she will train the dog however you like. For instance, the class that I am in there are dogs that are learning how to be trained on flat collar, harness, English lead and prong. Take a guess at which dogs learn the fastest.

You guys can train your dog how you like and Ill try my dog how I like.

 

That's absolutely fine - you are completely within your right to train your dog however you wish.

This is a place where people come for help and to get a better understanding of how to positively train their dogs and share their experiences.

I don't understand however, why you would come to a forum that is ran specifically for positive methods to basically say that you don't agree with it and will do whatever you want. It's essentially trolling. I'm sure there must be forums which share your views, so why not discuss it there?

 

We will without cruelty we have ethics thank you .pity you don't have a more open mind or a understanding of the bigger picture you might actually learn something. Compassion empathy and intelligence are valuable things in all aspects of life not just dog training

 

I did wonder about this too seems a bit strange, but it does go with the mind set

 

I wonder why they learn the fastest, could it be to avoid PAIN as they become so FEARFUL of their owners.

 

Deleted as it's just feeding the troll at this point...

 

Oh really? How am I trolling. The problem with this site is that it is not open to another point of view. I experienced this yesterday when I linked a Free Online training that only dealt with how to manage your dog in the house. That post was deleted.

My experience here has shown me how closed minded Purely Positive people are. You think balanced training is cruel w/o even experiencing it. You think its some kind of extreme cruel measure when it is nothing like that. We tell our dogs Ugh-uh instead of never telling it did something wrong. That is the main difference but people here would take that as us yelling at the dog or something and that is never the case. Also, if you have ever told your dog No or stopped it from doing something w/o redirection then you are not doing purely positive.

I took my pup to a Purely Positive daycare. They said they use misdirection. But when I picked my puppy up they told me that they had to remove him from the class because he was trying to mount another dog. They actually stopped him from socializing because they didnt want to correct him. Wth is that? The only reason I took him to daycare was for socialization. Now because they wont correct they take away socializing? Only because they didnt want to tell him No? That is when I started to see the flaws with this style. And really whats more cruel. Telling him no or removing him from socializing with every other dog in the facility. He is a puppy for God sake!

The primary thing that we do is work on the relationship with the dog. I hand feed my dog every meal when Im doing a class, that is something that is not negotiable with my trainer. It has helped a lot in growing closer with my dog. I never see that mentioned here. Most of what I see here is, oh, needs more exercise or needs more mental stimulation. Lol. You guys never even address the issue that the dog is completely out of control. Ive never seen anybody here talk about a behavioral down/sit. Also, It is well known that you will reach a point where what ever reward you have is not going to be high value enough. Then what are you going to do?

Anyway, I joined the site not knowing this was a Purely Positive site. I also, started training at the current facility not knowing that it was more of a balanced type of training. However, as I learned more I started to see how things are being skewed and people are being brain washed. Just like how the youth are never being spanked and are now the worst kids of any generation. Mainly because they lack coping mechanisms because of never being told no. It is the same thing that is happening to our dogs.

In the end its fine, I see how closed minded this site is. I liked it mainly for comparing behavior of other puppies. I dont need to post for that.

 

Have you ever used one? Have you ever seen it used? I would guess not. If you did then you would understand how wrong you are. Also, its used as a training tool a starting point and most dogs are moved off it.

Moderator Note:

Some aspects of this post are out of line with behavioural science on how dogs learn and why they do what they do.

Dogs are not motivated to 'dominate' humans. There is no need to show yourself as a 'pack leader', put a dog in his place, or show him who is boss.

If you are having problems getting your dog's attention, or getting him to do what you want him to do, it's not because he is bad, stupid, disrespectful or deliberately defying you.

These articles explain why in more detail:

http://www.thelabradorsite.com/is-your-labrador-in-charge/
http://www.thelabradorsite.com/my-labrador-puppy-wont-obey-me-any-more/
http://www.thelabradorsite.com/3-reasons-your-labrador-is-disobedient/


We do not advocate the use of prong collars on this forum and we request that you do not do so either, thank you.

Mags, moderator.

 

That's the point we find cruelty and prong collars immoral. We are open to any training tecniques as long as no suffering or pain is involved.I would never use anything like that i have strong ethical standards.
I have seen one used and seen the dogs reaction to pain and I have a dog behavourist friend who has helped reabilitate dogs who have been damaged emotionally and physically by them.
Apart from anything else and the ethics aside it seemd a short term fix and a lazy way of achieving results. You are just using pain to terrify and get a responce i dont want to be that kind of person. Im quite happy that you think I'm wrong and we're are wrong.

 

Do you find it cruel when another puppy nips another? Its the the same thing. I guess puppies are so cruel...

Also, you see more dogs now a days being rehabilitated at balanced facilities because of the failure of Purely Positive. What happened there? Need better treats? Didnt try hard enough?

 

Pups nip puppies that's what they do. Putting a thing of cruelty on a dogs neck and giving it a yank is a different thing entiely. What's the matter you seem a little annoyed are US PP people proving a but more resilient than a dog you can hurt? Your arguments are pathetic .

 

We are not dogs, we can't use a dog's body language and should not assume that our growling (or whatever) would be read like a dog would read another dog - it won't.

I train Guide Dog pups - I'm on number five now.

Guide Dogs use positive methods. Their working dogs are not simply competing in competitions, they have their owner's lives in their paws. Guide Dogs will only use the best of the best training methods for this incredibly important role for the sake of the dogs and the humans.

.