Hello I posted about this issue when Bonnie was about 3 months old as I was concerned about some of her behaviours. The situation seems to have become worse over the last two weeks and I wonder if it is time to consult a profession? She is now 24 weeks old. I should say that two weeks ago she was spayed. I don't know if that is relevant medically or whether the fact she had to be on a leash for 10 days has had an impact. But since being spayed not only has the aggressive behaviour become worse, her recall and general obedience appear to have gone out to window. I'm able to go back to scratch with the recall and obedience (reading lots about that and we start a new class after Easter) but the aggression is a real concern. I'm no expert but I'd say her behaviour is consistent with what some dog behaviourists term "frustration induced aggression". If Bonnie is frustrated from doing something she wants to do, or is restrained in any way, she becomes vocally aggressive (growling, barking) or physically aggressive (muzzle punching, snipping and actual biting). So far, it's only me that she's bitten hard enough to break skin with, but she has jumped up or lunged for my brother and my nephew's face whilst simultaneously snapping with her teeth. I also get warning signs like the sneezing and lip curling. When she's in a heightened state of frustration her pupils dilate. We used to jokingly call them her "wild eyes" but that's starting to not seem funny any more. :-\ With frustrations (such as wanting to grab the dustpan and brush when I'm cleaning or tidying up the torn up milk carton she's enjoyed and finished with), I'm getting pretty expert in simply diverting her attention, or finding a little job for her to do alongside me (she fetches the pegs when I'm hanging the washing for example). It's the same with things like jumping up on people's knees or trying to steal their coasters, or taking a sneaky sip of their tea! I tend to divert her with a game or a treat. However, I'm starting to worry that there's so much diversion going on with treats and games that I'm exacerbating an attention-seeking behaviour and/or in danger of over-feeding her. She understands her obedience cues, I'm certain of it, she's a very clever girl! But it's like she simply doesn't agree that she should have to do them. With restraints it's much harder. She hates her lead. When we started life together (at 10 weeks) we worked really hard at recall and it was really good straight away so we spent most of our walks off-lead. Two things have happened recently that means I can't let her off her lead as much as she's used to and I know it's frustrating her. First, the recall issue means I'm not confident of letting her off unless there's absolutely nobody/dog in sight. Secondly, summer has brought out the quad-bikers to the woods where we go walking. It's illegal, they shouldn't be there, but other dog-walkers tell me they've tried to get it stopped and can't. So, I can't let her off her lead. Now, whenever she sees her lead she starts barking and/or snapping at me. It feels like unless I let Bonnie do whatever she wants she will show her displeasure in some way and that can't be right. I'll give you a for instance. When we walk on the lead through the estate we stop at the kerbs and "wait" before "okay" to cross. I give her a treat once we're across the road. The other day I ran out of treats for the last kerb on the way home and Bonnie just stopped, refused to move on without her treat. I coaxed her on but she muzzle punched me and jumped up and nipped at my hand all the way home!!!! Sometimes she will just sit in the middle of the room and stare at me to let me know she needs something. If I get the need wrong she starts barking at me and makes a guttural noise that feels like she's about to start nipping at my legs!!! If she wants to go out for a walk she will muzzle punch me under the desk where I work. If she wants the sofa to herself she will kick me till I move. Oh bless her, she just seems really grumpy and frustrated all the time. Even when she's chewing one of her toys or a treat she seems sort of grumpy and frustrated about it (making vocalisations). She's recently been checked over by a vet and there don't seem to be any medical issues. The only time she seems truly happy is when she's outside, off her lead and we're having a lovely walk together. We play so well together outside and we both love it. Today was awful. My dad came round and she barked at him for the first 20 minutes of his stay. I asked him just to ignore her and not try and "win her round" and she eventually settled down. But, when he stood up to leave the barking and growling was really worrying and he tried to win her round again and she went for him. He backed off just in time, but I'm almost certain she wanted to bite him. I'm so worried. What if she does bite someone (other than me)? What happens if she starts to find this an acceptable way to deal with getting what she wants or doesn't want? Also, I am a getting a little bit scared of her. I'm desperately trying not to be and I play lots of trust-building games and gentle, calm games that she enjoys but.... well, I'll stop there... I think you'll get the picture. I just don't know where we've gone wrong :'(
Re: Frustration induced aggression...? PS, I should have said, if I don't successfully divert, I get a mouthing!
Re: Frustration induced aggression...? What a worry! All very stressful, and you seem to have your hands full, alright. But - I have a friend with a dog and a few months ago, about last August, the description of that dog was the same as Bonnie. I met her on a training course, and made friends with her and stayed in touch. I felt so sorry for her one day on the course, her dog reacted just like Bonnie, went nuts in frustration because she was asked to sit still, jumped up and bit her arms, drawing blood. She really looked like she had just had enough of that dog. Now though, I saw her recently, trotting round with her dog on a loose lead, completely under control. A lovely girl, doing so well in her training. It was just as the trainer had said - she had an early and long adolescence, wasn't aggressive at all, and the key was just training, training, and more training. So, I'd say it sounds like it's highly unlikely you have an aggressive dog, just one that you need to work very hard at in terms of frustration management. A good trainer will help you with this. It might also be the case that you've been bribing her with treats a little, rather than training her. I say this because of your description of her not moving when you didn't have a treat. A trainer could also help you use food effectively - it's not a great thing to use as a management tool, rather than train with it, because it is easy to end up bribing. The very best wishes to you, it sounds very stressful, but I'm sure you'll get through it.
Re: Frustration induced aggression...? Thank you, Julie. I've just welled up (with gratitude / relief) ! It is so good to have that level of understanding and the wonderful, hopeful picture of your friend with her pup with the early and long adolescence! (that sounds like it could be our case indeed) You're absolutely right about the bribing rather than training with treats. I need to re-train myself too! Thank you SO much. I really value your support and advice.
Re: Frustration induced aggression...? They can be so very trying, these young dogs. Gentle, firm, effective training and you'll get there. Are there any good classes, or a trainer you could have a 121 with? I honestly do not think I would have survived Charlie's teenage months without the support of a trainer to tell me all was normal, and I just had to keep at it (Charlie's issues were different, but just as frustrating), consistently, firmly but kindly....
Re: Frustration induced aggression...? To be honest Bonnie sounds quite similar in many ways to my dog, Obi. He is a real vocaliser, and is always moaning, grumbling, whining, barking, harumphing, squeaking.... He also does a kind of groany-growl a lot but it's not a warning growl, it's a play noise - so he'll groany-growl with pleasure when you scratch him, or when we're playing a tug game with a toy. Basically, he is a great big chatterbox!! It's a big contrast to our first dog who was absolutely silent 99% of the time. So, some dogs just use their voice a lot. When we got Obi he was 9 months and did all the things Bonnie does - jump and bite at you to get attention, barking crazily if there was something he wanted to get to but couldn't, barking in our faces if we were paying attention to anything else... He was exhausting!! We had a strict 'no attention' policy for these behaviours, and we made extensive use of short time-outs. Yes, this is a punishment, but he bit very firmly (if only in 'play'), and removing attention simply didn't cut it and we could not risk having him bite anyone else. We had to shut him behind a door (for 30 seconds) to get the message across. This completely fixed the problem in a few weeks. For barking we basically used treats and opportunities for good things to reward lying down in silence. So, on a walk, we'd stop and sit on a bench or wall. He'd immediately start barking right at us. We ignored this. Eventually he gave up and laid down. Immediately we stood up and continued the walk (what he wanted). Next time we stopped he lay down quicker. We started varying the time we expected him to lay down for (sometims asking for longer) before walking again, plus adding in treats for laying down quietly. We built up to being able to have a take-away coffee while sitting down, then eventually a full breakfast at a cafe! This took a while, maybe a couple of months, but we got there. When you're out on a walk (or are practising sitting and doing nothing) and she starts leaping, biting, pushing at you, barking or whatever, tie her to a lamp post or tree and stand out of reach. Wait till she settles, however long it takes. Just relax and wait. As soon as she is quiet for 1 second then reward her with treats and the opportunity to continue the walk. This is the same as Julie's 'parking' except she can't get to you to grab or push you. Next time, wait for 2 seconds. Don't always make it longer though - vary it so sometimes it's a tiny bit longer but often shorter. If you have to do this a hundrend times a week, not a problem. Next week it will only be 50 times and the week after that 20 times and eventually zero times. We did also make use of things like day care to give him exposure to different people and dogs and, quite frankly, to wear him out a bit!! We also did dog club classes (obedience classes). Doing a lot of training, of anything really, helps to build a positive relationship in which your dog seens you as the source of good things and fun times. Also, it builds a relationship in which your dog learns that they can get what they want in return for doing something you want - they learn that there is a 'legitimate' way to control their environment. You give them the means to get what they like, but on your terms. Our dog is a really good boy now and a pleasure to live with. You will get there too
Re: Frustration induced aggression...? I can't add anything to the fantastic advice you have already been given, but just wanted to say I hope things improve for you both soon x
Re: Frustration induced aggression...? [quote author=JulieT link=topic=10388.msg152907#msg152907 date=1427671177] They can be so very trying, these young dogs. Gentle, firm, effective training and you'll get there. Are there any good classes, or a trainer you could have a 121 with? I honestly do not think I would have survived Charlie's teenage months without the support of a trainer to tell me all was normal, and I just had to keep at it (Charlie's issues were different, but just as frustrating), consistently, firmly but kindly.... [/quote] We've signed up to a new class after Easter with a trainer who is our region's gun dog representative so I'm sure that'll be really good. I will see how we get on and speak to her about a 1 2 1 as well. I don't think I could get by without this forum to be honest, it's a god send. I completely adore my little pooch and I'm really happy to keep going (and going!!) and she brings out the lovely in me so it's always with kindness I think my main problem is doubting myself and doubting that I'm doing right by her. Thanks again
Re: Frustration induced aggression...? @Rachael - thanks so much for that good advice. And the reassurance that Obi was similar and that you got through it! We went out to a field early this morning and did lots of recall training. This afternoon when we went out Bonnie actually managed to ignore a passing dog because we were having so much fun (.... and I had chicken!!! ...) That is a first for us and we were very proud!! ;D Later she chased and jumped up at an unimpressed jogger but... hey-ho! ??? I think I have to remember there will be good days and bad. I should really post a picture of her one of these days (when I master the technology!!) she is such a beautiful girl (suits her name) and she's really clever too. I think I just need to be a bit more confident in my leadership with her take on board your tips! Thank you
Re: Frustration induced aggression...? [quote author=Naya link=topic=10388.msg152924#msg152924 date=1427700227] I can't add anything to the fantastic advice you have already been given, but just wanted to say I hope things improve for you both soon x [/quote] Thank you so much Naya. That's really much appreciated. It has been a tough couple of weeks. Bonnie brings me lots and LOTS of joy as well and when we have good days, like today, I think perhaps there's light...
Re: Frustration induced aggression...? [quote author=Bonnie link=topic=10388.msg153101#msg153101 date=1427750650] Later she chased and jumped up at an unimpressed jogger but... hey-ho! ??? [/quote] Charlie used to do that ALL THE TIME! ;D ;D ;D He doesn't now. I think the breakthrough was on one holiday, there was a busy path to the beach and I'd walk him up and down off lead. Everytime someone came close I'd get his attention (with my attention-getting noise I'd trained in the kitchen) and give him a treat. I did it 100, 200, 400 - oh just loads of times. ;D It finally sunk in that he doesn't approach people when we are out and about....then we did the same on Wimbledon Common around joggers. It's just normal, keep at it, you'll get there...
Re: Frustration induced aggression...? [quote author=Bonnie link=topic=10388.msg153101#msg153101 date=1427750650] We went out to a field early this morning and did lots of recall training. This afternoon when we went out Bonnie actually managed to ignore a passing dog because we were having so much fun (.... and I had chicken!!! ...) That is a first for us and we were very proud!! ;D[/quote] That is absolutely brilliant - well done!
Re: Frustration induced aggression...? I thought I'd do a one-week-on update in case this issue is something that others are struggling with. I was going to do it last night but I couldn't get my hands to the laptop for the little bundle of happy fluff that was nuzzled into my lap! So, we've had a really good week and the issue is much lessened. This has been our approach: Entirely ignore undesirable behaviour and praise desirable behaviour. Having read Pippa's article which talked about setting up your dog for success, I decided to make it really easy for Bonnie to attain desirable behaviour. Outside: this is when Bonnie is at her best so we've been outdoors a lot (rain or shine!!!) We have practiced all the things she's quite good at and made them better. We are now almost totally walking nicely to heel and we're getting really good at waiting for joggers and cyclists to pass, although there's still more work to be done there. We're practicing our recall but this is not great when there are distractions. Other dogs are still the major distraction and we are going to have to work really hard at that. I'm using high value treats to enforce the idea that mum is the most interesting thing around. We're playing lots, keeping it interesting and keeping it focused on mum. I've been using the about-turn technique too (see other post or, better still, Pippa's article on proofing recall). Indoors: all undesirable behaviour has been turned into a game. Bonnie no longer rips up the post when it comes through the letterbox, she fetches the post for a treat. She no longer snaps and interferes with me putting the washing in the tub, she drops the socks into my hand for a treat. She no longer tries to chase the dustpan and brush, she go finds her treats whilst I'm dusting up the rubbish. Instead of counter surfing, she sits and waits on her mat until the time is right for a treat. And fetch the peg is our very favourite game! We've all but forgotten the idea that washing on the line is to be jumped at and dragged off!!! ;D Every undesirable behaviour has been turned into a positive behaviour. This appears to be working because Bonnie doesn't realise she's being prevented from doing what she wants. The biting and "petulant" behaviour is down to about 10% of what it was a week ago. That could be because we've had a really good week and obviously I won't be able to spend every week giving her this much attention! On the other hand, if it's imprinting desirable behaviour and making the undesirable behaviour a distant (if non-existent) memory, then it's very worth it. I believe we'd got ourselves into a cycle of undesirable behaviour and it was starting to become the norm. By breaking the cycle, I'm hopeful we'll move on from it. One thing that occurred to me, (when reading Lisa's post) is that when I met Bonnie at 8 weeks, her breeders said they were keeping one of the litter for themselves. But - they weren't letting the pup inside the house with mum because it didn't seem fair on the other pups. So..... my hunch is (and I'm afraid I was too much of a novice to have investigated this at the time) that Bonnie was already living separately from her mum at 8 weeks. That could very well explain why Bonnie thinks biting and muzzle punching and barking at me are the right way to get her own way. I may just have to work a little harder at removing this idea from her clever little doggy-brain!! We've only had one incident of biting this week. Yesterday she got absolutely covered in mud and had to have a wash down. She hates this. : I have been using wipes when it's a minor bit of mud but yesterday she needed a good old water rub down! She knows the ritual. I leave treats next to the tub of water, she comes to get them and gets a rub down! I don't force her near the tub so she's voluntarily coming to me. She still hates it though and tries to get the treat without the rub!!! After that she was in a high state of arousal and I had to give her her eye drops!!!! (I should have waited till she was calmer, in retrospect.) She's got conjunctivitis and all week we've done the drops with no problems ("look at mum" [for a treat] is a great game when it comes to administering drops!) But yesterday she wasn't going to sit nicely and have another thing done to her she didn't want!! ??? BUT instead of barking and biting my hands, which she'd normally do, she tried to pinch the drops' bottle out of my hand and then she'd lick my other hand. Reachforbottle-lick-reachforbottle-lick! She's been so loving and attentive this week I'd hardly believe she's the same dog. We used to spend our evenings on the sofa with me at one end and her at the other. I used to think, all this hard work and not even a cuddle at the end of the day!!! :-\ But now we're having a lovely cuddle each night. I think what's happened is that we've built up trust between us. To me, the solution has been to find creative ways of turning a negative into a positive. Don't get me wrong, we're not the model owner/pup by any means!!! And it's hard! Oh boy, it's hard! It's all I'm focused on at the moment, the rest of my life is taking a backseat. But, gosh, it's so rewarding to see my girl get things right and I love seeing her laughing!! 8) Thanks again for all your wonderful advice. I am totally convinced now that aggression isn't what we were facing, we were facing a confused pup who didn't know how to ask for things nicely. And a confused owner who didn't really understand how to ask her pup to do things nicely!
Re: Frustration induced aggression...? Ha! I've just realised I have to paint the shed and fence today.... how to turn that into a positive game...!?! Thoughts on a postcard....
Re: Frustration induced aggression...? Wow, I have to congratulate you for initiating all those changes. You are reaping the well deserved rewards! I think you are spot on when you say that you have greatly reduced the confusion all round. Dogs love clarity and consistency and I'm sure that Bonnie is much happier now that her world seems so much clearer and more controllable. Umm...dunno about the shed ;D But it sounds like hard work so maybe think about instituting a reward system for yourself! For every square metre painted a piece of chocolate perhaps?
Re: Frustration induced aggression...? Hi Phillipa ,your update today has brought your thread up and I'm so glad because I'd missed reading about your trials with Bonnie.its wonderful to read about so much improvement and how much improvement you are experiencing ,not just with some of the behaviours but also in your relationship with her.You sound like you've really put some great effort on,well done.she's really only still such a youngster but you are laying down some,really great foundations with her.let us know how,you find your training class x
Re: Frustration induced aggression...? You are doing a fantastic job and are obviously reaping the rewards I am so pleased for you both
Re: Frustration induced aggression...? It was lovely to read of your success - well deserved after all your hard work. I'm sure Bonnie is going to be wonderful with such great training.
