Does anyone have any experience/advice/opinions on using these supplements? The company I buy Penny's glucosamine and chrondroitin supplements from (riaflex) also do these and I don't know very much about them. In the past couple of months I have seen a marked worsening of Penny's hip dysplasia to the point where I am having to give her metacam a lot more often. She is only just over 2 years old and I do not want to be at the point of giving her daily pain relief now although I think we are getting close. I am especially wary about the side effects of long term metacam usage which is why I am keen to avoid it if possible. I've read things about green lipped mussel and devils claw that make me think i might want to try it with her, but was wondering if anyone here has ever used it and what sort of results you had with it? We are going for an assessment at the end of June/beginning of July as part of a clinical study she is in so we will have new X-rays to assess her condition then.
Poor Penny , I really do sympathise with you and her too . I had a dog with bad arthritis and like you , I tried not to give metacam or any other NSAID drugs for too long term although its a hard one to call if your dog is in pain. I think that glucosamine and chondroitin is a good supplement to give , I give it to Sam as recommended by our Vet as he is such a huge dog that I want to try and preserve his joints , as much as anyone can do . I have heard good reports of green lipped mussel , to be honest, it cant do any harm to try it , hope all goes well for the assessment, bless her .
Sorry to hear about Penny. Our regular food contains green lipped muscle extract. It says it is a natural source of Glucosamine and Chondroitin. So I think it's all the same thing really? I think the only difference is the glucosamine and chrondroitin from the green lipped muscle hasn't been artifically synthesized, or sourced from meat based product. The latter is important if you have a dog with a meat allergy.
Ah ok, so basically the green lipped mussel wouldn't really do anything more as she's already on a glucosamine and chrondroitin supplement? What about Devils Claw? I've heard it's supposed to provide some form of natural pain relief...?
Poor penny. I thought green lipped mussel was a natural anti inflammatory and as far as I know glucosamine and chondroitin aren't although I could be wrong. A lady I know swears by green lipped mussel as a natural anti inflammatory/pain relief for her dogs. I don't know about Devils Claw but CSJ do a supplement containing it. It gets good reviews and you only need to give 1/4 of a teaspoon. http://www.csjk9.com/productcart/pc/viewPrd.asp?idproduct=117&idcategory=3
Jen - thanks for that A quick google suggests you are quite correct! It says the anti-inflammatory benefits come from the omega-3 fatty acids present in the green lipped mussel, although that applies to all fish and shellfish I think, generally speaking, If that is the case, I wonder if a fish based food would be of benefit, as fish is a great source of omega-3 anyway. I feed fish4dogs (salmon, pea and potato) which contains the green lipped mussel extract, and is packed with omega-3 from the salmon too. Sounds like a good recipe for a dog needing some extra help?
I already give her a daily omega 3 supplement and her food (Arden grange salmon and rice) also contains fish oils; one of the reasons I chose it. I've done some more reading about devils claw and I read that it can potentially have the same sorts of side effects as metacam when used long term. It's such a minefield I have no idea what to do! Vets will all give conflicting advice too!
Ah Lauren,I'm,sorry she seems to have taken a dip...I can't help you having no experience but I really feel for you.I Know will do everything you can to help her ,sometimes it panics you trying to wade through all the information that's out there,best of luck ,let us know what the X-rays reveal when you have that check up x
Forgive me Penny+Me as I haven't followed your full back story. But management and pain control for such a young dog doesn't sound like an ideal way forward. Is surgery not an option?
Surgery has never been discussed. A brief history: she was diagnosed with hip dysplasia at a little over a year old, though I noticed symptoms when she was about 9-10 months. She had X-rays of her hips using the PennHip technique and hip dysplasia confirmed. We were given metacam to use as needed and referred for physiotherapy. They wanted to hold off on hydrotherapy for the present as they wanted to 'save' that for when her conditioned worsened. She did well with physio but over the months we have let it lapse and to be honest although her muscle tone improved the stiffness and limping didn't. I already had her on joint supplements since she was 6 months but added in omega 3 on the advice of our ortho vet. Well that wasn't very brief actually was it haha!! Anyway over the winter she has been surprisingly ok, probably with walks being shorter. But the last couple of months she has worsened noticeably. We will be taking part in a clinical study of arthritis in Labradors at the end of June so will have a new set of xrays and a full assessment of her so I will be able to see how we are going. She is also hyper mobile in all of her joints. I used to worry that she would struggle to reach 10, but now I worry that we may lose her much much younger
I do remember you saying you didn't get a clear idea of the severity of her problems, and now you say that surgery hasn't been discussed - is it time for a new vet, a second opinion, or a specialist opinion maybe? It really does sound like getting Penny on a programme that is designed for her is the thing, and get surgery fully explored. I also really do not understand "saving" hydrotherapy - what is it being saved for? And while the physio might not have improved things, it might stop things getting worse, so well worth picking that up again I would have thought. I also look at various supplements from time to time - but then I always end up sticking to what my vet prescribes. Which is EFAs, glucosamine and chrondroitin (both the ortho vet and surgeon thinks the EFAs the most important). I don't think "natural" remedies are likely to be anymore effective than a properly prescribed high dose of "man made" supplements. Have you asked about cartrophen injections? That's often worth a try I think - I understand while many dogs don't benefit, lots do. What is the nature of this trial? What is it trialing and is it likely to design a proper programme for Penny?
It's looking at the incidence of arthritis in Labradors. I'm not expecting to get a huge amount out of it but she will get X-rays and a full assessment so may act like a second opinion. I am wondering if we ought to go back to our ortho vet before though as we haven't seen him since she had her original xrays. I don't understand why they are 'saving' hydrotherapy either. I think we were just seeing how she got on with the physio alone and you're right - I really do need to pick it up again. I sat down last night a wrote down a program of exercises which we were doing before so will start those tonight. The physio said even just twice a week would be fine. I'll give it two weeks of that and then look at going back to our vet I think. EFA's is that essential fatty acids? What do you use for those? When I was looking it up I landed on omega 3 being the best out of all of them so I just give an omega 3 supplement but maybe it's time to go back to the fish oils that contain all of them? I am going to move her on to Riaflex's Joint Plus rather than the Joint Daily as it has a higher concentration of glucosamine and chondroitin and also contains MSM which is meant to be good too. Our vet never prescribed us supplements, just said that there was no proven benefit of glucosamine supplements and omega 3 was better.
For what it is worth Benson my 5 year old Labrador had a poor score on his elbow X Ray (EBV 108) when he was 1 year old and I decided to give him a daily dose of Green Lipped Mussel 500mg capsules as a prophylaxis which he has been taking for the past 4 years . He is extremely fit and runs for miles with no sign of dysplasia. All anecdotal I hear you say, but it is cheap and worth a try in the absence of any other evidence.
It's good the trial will do the x-rays and it does sound a good idea to go back to a specialist for an updated programme to help her. And discuss the pros and cons of giving her anti-inflammatories and supplements. Maybe it's time to see what hydro could do for her. EFAs are essential fatty acids, omega-3, yes. When I say "prescribed" - Charlie's surgeon recommended a brand with a particular dose. He sells the supplement, but he had no incentive to sell it to me really, I wasn't going to continue to buy it from him and he told me at the time it might not work. A year on though and there is some new evidence EFAs do help, and he is now glad Charlie has been taking it for year or more. I'm tempted to add salmon oil to Charlie's diet - just because, well, I'm probably a bit taken with the advertising of wholesome salmon from clean Norwegian waters and keen to do anything that might help my dog . But being sensible, it is not necessarily the case that more is better and I'm going to ask the ortho vet about whether it is wise to feed more EFAs next time I see him.
EFA's are essential fatty acids. The difficulty with them is getting the dose right.. A lot of supplements (most of them) do not contain the right/amount or quality of EPA/DHA..(types of fatty acids) A couple on the market are pharma grade and have been involved with clinical trials. In terms of anti-inflammatory effect (reduction in swelling around the joint namely the soft tissue areas ) this does take some time, up to around 3 months. Probably the best way to take essential fatty acids to be sure of the right amounts and quality of EFAs oils is through oily fish..(mackerel, sardines and salmon )are three of the best sources. I know in humans the recommended amounts are 3 -4 portions a week, I don't know however, how this translates to dogs in terms of use in inflammatory conditions. There would have to be a consistency in this approach however. What worries me about supplements, notwithstanding the quality and claims of some of them, is chopping and changing,is the risk of not getting the right dose on a daily basis to ensure the optimal effect,
I'm really sorry to hear about Penny. I find it such a huge responsibility to do the right thing by my dog given all the conflicting advice out there (ie the Internet!), not to mention conflicting advice from different vets I've been to. A friend has a Lab with hip dysplasia. She got him (a "rescue") when he was one and a half years old and he already had hip dysplasia (unbeknownst to her, she took him in because he was good with cats). The vet said it was severe (I don't know how "severe" compares to the standard scores). Anyway, he is now five years old and a very happy chappy. He has not had an operation because she can't afford it, and of course he is not covered by pet medical aid because it was an existing condition (I can never understand that last clause!!). But she manages it very well by constant slow exercise -- a lot of walking on the leash. He doesn't want to run, he is not boisterous, and he actually walks way too slowly for her liking as her motivation to get a dog was in the hope that it would increase HER exercise! She also gives him Mobiflex on his food every day -- and that is what prompted me to write on this post, because it contains green lipped muscle extract (among other things). It's available in South Africa, not sure what an equivalent would be where you live (UK?). Her vet recommended it. And her boy is doing so well. I have seen a massive improvement in him over the years, and when he sees my boy, well, the two of them are in love and go wild in each other's company, and he leaps into the air and races around as if he were a normal Lab puppy, although you can see the wobbly hips. And he does tire easily, much to my boy's annoyance! But clearly, when motivated sufficiently, he can use those hind legs. But she says he does not jump onto the beds at home because, well, it is just too difficult for him. And he won't climb upstairs. But other than that, he is very happy. I don't know if she gives him pain meds, but I shall ask next time I see her. I also give my boy Mobiflex because the vet recommended it for him as a puppy when he limped. He doesn't limp anymore but I give it as a dietary supplement just in case! I also give him salmon oil for the omega-3s as they are anti-inflammatories, but more to help his itchy skin. Have you ever considered a raw diet? I am rather hesitant to say the following given the latest article on raw food sent via The Labrador Site, which talks about no evidence, just anecdotal reports. But there is evidence in human diets that high sugar in the diet causes inflammation. So it seems logical that to remove the sugar would reduce inflammation. And most processed dog food (pellets) is high in carbohydrates (sugars). Best of luck with Penny's treatment and I really do hope that you find something that works. My heart feels for you and for her.
I do agree with this - the dose has to be high enough to have an impact and I'm not sure that you could feed enough in food alone. I'm also wary though of feeding too many supplements, which might be harmful.
And also harmful on the pockets! The stuff I use can be expensive, especially as we will be moving on to the stronger Joint Plus rather than Joint Daily. I think for now I will just go with the Joint Plus and carry on with the omega 3, but do some more research into EFAs and try and figure out what might be more effective. I will start up her physiotherapy again and see how we go. If we see no improvement after that then we will go back to our ortho vet. I'm still as confused as ever... Conflicting advice everywhere
I remember we had a discussion about this previously Not entirely sure this helps The thread is http://thelabradorforum.com/forum/n...brador-health/2255-fish-oil-for-dogs#post2255 I am still confused though.
Yeah the original research I did last year said something like that although my calculations I did just now look like she's not actually getting enough EPA or DHA from her omega 3 tablets. I think I need to up the dose. It's really confusing though because they're human ones and you're supposed to take 3 a day, so the RDA on the back is for 3 capsules. Per 3 capsules it gives 3600mg fish oil containing 648mg EPA, 432mg DPA with a total omega 3 fatty acids of 1080mg. I give Penny one a day. The canine supplements weren't anywhere near as strong.
