Hi All, So my little pup Monty was allowed out this week and we were so excited. AS soon as we arrived in the park and on the grass we let him off (11 weeks) and he was great. Recall was fantastic and he loved meeting the other dogs sssooo much. For the first day we took him for a slow stroll round the park, more for socialisation than exercise and this was for 30 mins in the morning and then again 30 mins at night. On the second day we did the same again, he was so amazing off lead and was happy with the extra its of his dry biscuits here and there when he was recalled. Suddenly, Im horrified to read that he really should only be having 15 mins for the whole day.....now I did know that pups were only supposed to have 15 mins but didnt realise it was for the whole day and now I am upset thinking that he has that in our garden and now feel like we cant take him out which he loves. Also am so worried about the whole hip thing (Mum & Dad tested and are low but this does not always mean the pups are safe) Im wondering if we have done any lasting damage as he was running around with the other dogs having a whale of a time playing!! So hubby took him out today to the park for stricly a ten minute slow walk. Should we not be taking him out at all and just playing with him in the garden and until what age? He has puppy playgroup tonight which he loves but this is 15 minutes....its all very confusing? :-[
Re: Have We Done Any Damage?? I don't think you will have done any harm but I am perhaps not best to comment as I am not a big believer in holding back, even Betty tiny Chihuahua pup when she was barely 1 1/2lb in weight was walking 30 minutes twice a day vet said she was fittest puppy on his list. Elsie we walk until she looks like she has had enough at the moment it's just over an hour and again vet is pleased with her progress.
Re: Have We Done Any Damage?? Oh, Montysmum, I feel your pain! Feel free to look at my earliest posts on this forum, back in February - I had exactly the same feeling of horror (our lovely big garden is on a 3:1 hillside, and our new pup Pongo spent his first few days just hoolying around it, full speed, leaping here, there and everywhere...). So be reassured. As the lovely forum was quick to tell me, the 'Five Minute Rule' is really for so-called forced exercise - that is, when the pup is on a lead, or when you are actively spurring him on to activity. Off-lead, a puppy will naturally rest regularly (pause to sniff, have a wee, generally ponder life...) and won't do himself any damage (unless you get the feeling that he is just vastly over-excited, in which case perhaps calm him down). Also, the Five Minute Rule is written for those who exercise their pups on concrete pavement - nice muddy parks are another thing altogether. I'm still afraid that poor little Pongo might have been over-doing it in his early weeks, but he took (and takes) so much pleasure in his death-defying antics that I can't bring myself to discourage him. So really - don't worry, enjoy your puppy, let him enjoy himself to his heart's content and welcome to the forum! Rosie
Re: Have We Done Any Damage?? Your right it is very confusing. We are supposed to be socialising them and giving them lots of experiences, how do you manage that on only 15 minutes a day? I HAD to keep Molly out of the house (family disaster) for longer then the stated amount. I made sure we walked on grass and didn't jump on and off things. It is very difficult to curb a bouncy pup.
Re: Have We Done Any Damage?? I think we would have been bouncing off the walls if we had limited it, living in a flat with no garden comes with it's own challenges when you have puppies.
Re: Have We Done Any Damage?? Im so glad everyone else feels the same. Its such a shame as he really loved it. I was always glancing at him and everytime he stopped we stopped as I was happy he was taking in the smells and discovering everything. I think maybe we will stick to a 20 minute stroll then, as it has stopped his biting and he did sleep from 11:00 to 5:30 for these two nights which has helped my sanity a massive amount. Plus poor hubby is in all day with an excited puppy so its nice for him to get out and talk to ther dog owners.....I came out of the station the other day and hubby had Monty in his arms...he was surrounded by women all cooing......Hubby had the biggest smile on his face when he saw me lol......my two boys loving female attention bless.
Re: Have We Done Any Damage?? Yes, most people think keeping exercise to moderate levels for small lab puppies is a good thing. Everyone has different views and opinions on what this "5 minute guide" means exactly, and there are no hard and fast rules. It's just a guide to indicate exercise should be moderate. I do not think though this is much to do with on or off lead, it's about the end result. Your pup can walk too far with you off lead as easily as on lead, and you can "force the pace" off lead by making him run to keep up with you, or you can amble along on lead letting him explore slowly, and a puppy can do far, far too much off lead if he is allowed to play freely and for far too long with another dog. Puppies are not good at deciding when enough is enough. I also do not think it is relevant whether he walks on grass or pavement, although jumping around on hard surfaces is not a good thing. I don't think you are free to do more on grass than concrete - although obviously you are more likely to be on grass or a softer surface if you are ambling along off lead. I think it's fine to take him out, and slow ambles, off lead round the park are ideal, but an hour a day seems bit too much to me for 11 weeks. And if he is playing with other dogs, take that into account too - I think that it's the total exercise that you should be thinking about. So if he plays for 15 minutes, don't think you should carry on and do a 15 minute walk as well.
Re: Have We Done Any Damage?? I did adhere to the 5 mins rule until Sam was about 10 months old , but where I did relax was on grass . Pounding hard pavements , jumping in and out of cars, plus running up and down stairs can definitely impact on some pups , some get away with it scott free, other don't . When I had my previous Labradors, no one had heard of the five mins rule, none of mine suffered any ill effects , but that's not to say that I was right in exercising them much more than I have done with Sam . Try not to worry, whats done is done , just ease up now , play in the garden doesn't really count if its on grass especially , and a good play with other dogs in a grassy area is good for his socialisation, its down to common sense really
Re: Have We Done Any Damage?? Yes - I did the same as kateincornwall with Tatze and am doing it with Gypsy too. Just being aware that it is possible to overdo it helps.
Re: Have We Done Any Damage?? At 12 weeks old we would walk Harley on lead to the park (10 mins), play in the park off lead, do some training/socialisation with other dogs for about 20 mins, then walk back home (on lead 10 mins again). I think as long as they aren't going nuts for the whole time off lead it should be ok. Harley would often spend a good 5-10 mins sniffing everywhere so she had lots of rest breaks. It is difficult at such a young age and you will get to know when your pup is tiring and need to take him home
Re: Have We Done Any Damage?? I think you can worry too much about the five minute rule. It is a sensible guideline, a rule of thumb. That is all. It isn't set in stone, and studies have not confirmed that the rule is necessary. It is more about making sure people are not taking tiny puppies on exhausting hikes. It seems odd, but I think it is fair to say that little dogs are less at risk than bigger dogs. It is all about strain on the joints. So the five minute rule makes more sense for a Labrador than for a chihuahua. One thing studies have shown, is that climbing stairs is a risk factor. So puppies may be safer playing on level ground - at a park say, with other dogs, than climbing up hills. Again, it is all more about using your common sense and not exhausting a puppy. If you think you have been overexercising your puppy, then maybe you have. Cut back a little for a week or two, and build up again when he is a little older. There is no rush. Before you know it, he'll be running marathons with you
Re: Have We Done Any Damage?? Hi All, Thanks for all your advice. I think we will still to the 30 mins in the morning as it was such a slow walk, it was more about letting him sniff and discover what a tree was, what a bench was, what a river was etc. The moments he had with altogether 4 dogs came to less than five minutes as it was just a quick bit of tail wagging and mostly walking around each other sniffing. Maybe we'll leave the evening ones if he has been to puppy Playgroup or just make it a ten minute stroll. We have a baby gate up the stairs as our cat needs solace somewhere while they still get to know each other so that's ok. Thanks everyone, it's still a case on watching him while we are out and making a judgement......actually that part is easy as I can't stop looking at him and wondering how lucky we are. Have waited 40 years to finally have a dog as we wanted one of us to be home to enforce the training. Thanks everyone xx
Re: Have We Done Any Damage?? If anyone fancies a long read, have a look at this: http://www.knickerbockers.se/upload/Krontveit_PhD_thesis_2012.pdf It's a PhD thesis from a student at the Norweigan School of Veterinary Science, reviewing studies done on the environmental factors affecting hip dysplasia in dogs and specifically looks at the Norweigan study of 500 dogs ,roughly a quarter of whom were Labs, over ten years. The study specifically finds that restricted exercise is not good for puppies up to the age of 3 months and that those exercised in park terrain were less likely to have hip dysplasia. In the same study, as Pippa has commented, using stairs was found to be linked to hip dysplasia. Page 60 in this thesis: 'Off-lead exercise in park terrain more than halved the risk..... and the daily use of stairs almost doubled the risk.' I'm not sure where the '5 minute per month' idea originated but it irritates me that it doesn't seem to have any scientific basis - and I really have searched.
Re: Have We Done Any Damage?? We use the 5 min rule for their lead walk as it is all concrete pavement, but they get lots of off lead time racing around our big back garden which they absolutely love - round and round the shed & summer house, under the japanese maple tree which is just taller than them so hides them from each other perfectly! But they also spend just as long pottering round and investigating, rolling around with each other. We are being very careful with them as we didn't know about this with our first two 12&14 years ago, and just walked them loads, they both had with arthritis/osteochondrosis problems at a young age. We have also got the pups on puppy food that has glucosamine, chondroitin & MSM and also omega oils, figuring it's better to do it as a preventative measure rather than to alleviate symptoms when they're older. Lou x
Re: Have We Done Any Damage?? Interesting about that study, Joy. It's similar with foals. For normal joint and hoof development they need to walk a lot on undulating terrain. The worst thing you can do for a baby horse is keep them in a small, flat yard and limit exercise. I think that a big risk for puppies is limiting their experience of the world. If people are confining them to the same, familiar environment out of fear of damaging joints then they are opening the door to a whole range of socialisation problems.
Re: Have We Done Any Damage?? Those are really very fascinating points! Will have a look at the study. [quote author=Looby Lou link=topic=7615.msg106329#msg106329 date=1409603502] We use the 5 min rule for their lead walk as it is all concrete pavement [/quote] This is a point I'd like to just call out about this. Notwithstanding Rachael's point about undulating terrain, I do wonder where the danger of walking on concrete comes from. Is there anything in the study about it? When Charlie was injured, I asked loads of orthopedic vets, physios and surgeons about the merits of exercising on various surfaces. None of them said that walking on concrete was bad for injured or developing joints. Indeed, they were more concerned about walking on surfaces that are too soft - sand, for example. I can quite see that playing, and jumping, on concrete may be cause for concern (and never, ever, let Charlie jump out of a car onto concrete) but I honestly can't see why walking on concrete is cause for concern.
Re: Have We Done Any Damage?? I think older calmer labs would be fine' but my pups tend to trot a lot if the way, so there is impact, and this is what we did with our first lab who ended up with joint issues. I'd rather take these precautions than end up with problems later if their lives, they love their lead walk and we take them to parks and lakes and they play on the garden so i don 't think they are missing out on anything. The main issue we have had is with them being scared of passing cars, so the lead walk around the block has massively helped with this, they barely bat an eye now. I do agree tho, where do all these 5 min rules etc come from? I can't even remember where i read that, but it was only in the last few months while looking at puppy guidance in case we got some. Lou
Re: Have We Done Any Damage?? [quote author=Looby Lou link=topic=7615.msg106360#msg106360 date=1409640684] I think older calmer labs would be fine' but my pups tend to trot a lot if the way, so there is impact, and this is what we did with our first lab who ended up with joint issues. [/quote] Hmm...that's not in line with the advice I got from those vets. None of them were concerned about a puppy trotting on concrete. [quote author=Looby Lou link=topic=7615.msg106360#msg106360 date=1409640684] where do all these 5 min rules etc come from? I can't even remember where i read that, but it was only in the last few months while looking at puppy guidance in case we got some. [/quote] Exactly. This 5 minute rule has just appeared with no detail, all sorts of myths develop around it, and before we know it there are endless versions of what's ok and what's not!
Re: Have We Done Any Damage?? We tried to do a fair bit of playing in one place so that Riley never had to "keep up" either through being on a lead or through concern at being left behind. This meant he could self regulate.....although clearly that has more to do with tiredness than an innate knowledge of any issues with his joints :
Re: Have We Done Any Damage?? So from everyones comments...thanks so much. I think we will continue with the leisurely walk in the park for 20 mins a day (as he loves it and sleeps better at night) but monitor his 'playtime with other dogs' usually this is 5 mins mostly sniffing and tail wagging. Leave the walk in the evening but have a bit of playtime in the garden. Mainly retrieving a ball or licking me to death, occasionally chasing the cat, with the odd bit of bark eating and me chasing him to take it away from him. The next question is, at what age can we start to increase his walks?
