hello all. After months of watching Cuillin around other dogs, I've found out that although she can show fear around individual dogs, its groups of two or more that really give her the jip...this fear started when she was about nine months old. Around this time she began to show signs of stress on the mornings she went to her day care place - day care model was based on free playing all day (2 large fields), she would be spending the day around up to forty dogs. While I think day care can be fantastic, and a lot of dogs really enjoy and get a lot from the centre she attended, I decided it wasn't for Cuillin and took both dogs out. I'm working on the theory that while she is a nervy dog anyway, an experience or experiences with groups of dogs has kicked this off. I might be wrong. Anyway, I've been trying to limit her exposure to groups of unknown dogs for the past four months since she left day care, and trying to build her confidence by creating opportunities for her to play with groups of her 'pals' - dogs she knows, to build positive associations with group dog situations again for her. I've also been tentatively approaching unknown pairs of dogs playing after watching them for a bit and after C has stopped looking petrified, and asking owners if C can join in, and just seeing if she will. Sometimes she will, other times she will go up to them then look petrified again and charge off (barking). She has made some new now regular play dog pals as a result of this though, so it has had some good results for her. however this morning my heart went out to her, a group of three dogs she sees every day up the hill but won't go near appeared in the park where she and brods were playing chasing balls around. she didnt see them coming and suddenly they were just milling about with my two, and although she had her back up and ears clamped and tail between her legs and looked scared, she did stay and looked like she was trying to approach one of them. anyway, one of them suddenly ran towards her (another lab, and just being friendly!) and she gave one of those peircing squeals they give when they are puppies and ran over to me and just stood next to me high pitch whining ....I'm really not sure how I can make things better for her other than what I'm doing, does anyone have any good ideas? poor C....
Re: help with dog fears... Oh poor little girl , this must be heartbreaking for you to see Debsie . I guess its finding that happy medium , carrying on what you are doing re gentle introductions but not saturating her with her fears at the same time , a difficult and fine line to tread . Lots of praise and happy voice when she does interact well and without fear . Maybe if you could walk them both with someone else with a calmish dog, this might help her ? if you look in the books section , I bought a book on this subject , it sadly didnt help Poppy because her fear manifested as aggression, but it does seem to offer help on how to deal with a fearful dog, good luck x
Re: help with dog fears... I think you are doing the right thing Debsie. Keep on with the positive interactions with other dogs, and also dont reward her for her nervousness, so when she come rushing back to you scared of another (friendly) dog, dont be too protective, just act as though everything is fine and she has nothing to worry about. I'm not a huge fan of everything Cesar Milan says or does, but what he has to say about body language is important (he calls it calm assertive energy, but that's just bullish*t cover-up talk for body language, as far as I can tell :). If you look and sound as though everything is completely ok and there is no reason for her to be afraid, then she is more likely to come to believe that than if you comfort her when she is worried, which may in her mind reinforce the fact that there is something to be worried about, if you see what I mean! It's nice that she has Brodick to back her up and be her pal. Hopefully this will be something she grows out of in time, though she may never be completely easy in a group of dogs that she doesnt know well.
Re: help with dog fears... Debsie poor Cuillin. A different situation I know, but Charlie was and still can be pretty nervous about getting into my car and I spent ages coaxing him with treats, sitting in the boot myself etc. to get him in. It was the Agility trainer that told me I was feeding his anxiety with my behaviour. She said open the boot and say "IN" firmly and ignore him which tells him everything is fine and normal and that worked. Karen is right, again ;D just don't reward her nervousness, but it's so easy to do when you are worried for them in these situations. Maybe go for a short walk with her and a nice dog, but just keep it short and slowly build it up and then introduce another dog and increase numbers. I am just a novice the same as you, so just guessing. You always do the right thing so you will with this issue I am sure. Keep going. Helen xx
Re: help with dog fears... Thanks folks...yes have been praising her for good interactions, will have a look for the book Kate, sounds like it would be a useful read. Have read the Cautious Canine and a lot of it is C! this is made harder to manage because, and i do feel rotten saying this but its true, she seems to have a very unusual bordering on inappropriate-in-the-dog-world social interaction style with dogs, she jumps between two ends of the spectrum depending on the dog, from super super submissive, licking muzzles, lying flat on her back, to full on in their face and a bit rude... she can be a bully herself if she meets another dog that's more nervy than her, and she isn't above a bit of 'lets chase the scared dog and bully it a bit'...I think you're right about body language/attitude Karen and Helen, I've been focusing on just jollying them both along when she is showing fear, but I'm sure I subconciously display that Im feeling sorry for her which won't help at all, so must work more on projecting I'm In Charge and There's Nowt To Worry About too...one thing I've found really useful with Cuillin is the Turid Rugras book Calming Signals in dogs, which her trainer gave me, i was a bit sceptical about it all at first, but being aware of these has made me much more aware of when she is starting to get nervy and I can act quicker and stop her escalating. Lick lipping is a big one for her....sure sign that there is a strange dog on the horizon and gives me time to distract and act like all is fine and reward for calmness....
Re: help with dog fears... I've had a look at The Cautious Canine Debsie, and I think there are some helpful pointers in there, in particular regarding working out what are the actual triggers that cause fearful or aggressive reactions in your dog. And also it made me think about how we deal with those reactions - are we actually encouraging them, by trying to 'train' the dog out of them? Had a very interesting discussion with my other half about it - originally we thought Poppy was nervous about strangers in general, but in the end we realized she was is actually ok with strangers, but that strangers staring her in the eyes worries her, and if they bend down, look her in the eyes, and try to pat her, she sometimes gets spooked. We now have a different strategy. We encourage people she doesn't know to simply ignore her for a few minutes. And if a stranger insists on talking to her in a silly voice and tries to pat her and she backs away and / or makes her little woof noise, we just stand up straight and dont get upset - we simply say 'dont be silly Pops', and keep talking to the people in a normal voice. This seems to be giving her more confidence, and we are seeing much less of the backing away or woofing and nervousness in general.
Re: help with dog fears... I may need this book. Amy still is fearful and I been taking her out. She getting better with people (at school gates) but has freaked out twice at dogs she can hear but not see. She wimpers, jumps up to be carried and really pulls on the lead. Before hearing the dogs she was next to me and getting treats. If off lead I think she would have bolted! Its hard trying to ignore her reaction and get her focus back on me, without rewarding the nervous behaviour.
Re: help with dog fears... Thanks Karen, its really good to get your help on this one... I agree with you, I think we can make things worse sometimes by trying to 'train' these things away...you get such conflicting advice, I found myself trying lots of different solutions for Cuillin's fear reactions to other dogs, so I do wonder whether I have almost upped the anti for her. I had a behaviourist come out with me a wee while back and he told me that while I do need to try and desensitise Cuilli towards groups of dogs, in the interim I need to respect that she might feel she needs to react in a certain way, and if she does to just let that happen within reason, ignoring the reaction and being very matter of fact with her, as you say, but not try and stifle it ( I guess train her out of it), otherwise I could make the situation even worse. basically he said try and think 'dog' not 'human' when you're trying to understand her reaction to things and you will get on a lot better. What you've been doing with Poppy sounds like real sense when I think about Cuillin too... One thing that made a real difference for her after he told me this was to make sure I let her arc in her approach towards any dogs we were meeting when on lead - she used to pull badly (to get away) when we saw strange dogs and she was on lead (she's not nearly so nervy when I have her on lead strangely, but can still get a bit jippy) and after a while i realised that she was just doing what is natural to dogs in that situation - not wanting to approach head on. Letting her arc on approach has made lead meetings much better for her. She will also try to absolutely leg it through the park on the way home from her walks up the hill, as it is often busy with dogs. I used to try and 'train' her out of that, but actually just now I think what she needs to do is get out of that situation but in a 'positive' way so I've started getting her ball out and throwing it away from the dogs so she doesn't focus on them, she starts to relax again, have fun retreiving her ball, and we get through the scary situation by getting her to focus on the fun (and hopefully start to associate meeting dogs with fun with me) and not over focus on what's scaring her, so I guess thats what you mean, she is not being 'trained' out of it. We have a way to go, we met that group of three dogs again this morning and Cuillin was with one of her dog pals and brodick playing. Myself and her dog pals owner just ignored her and went up to chat to the woman and her dogs, Brodick and the other dog came too, all acted totally unconcerned and there were dog treats being handed out and lots of friendly dogs milling... but Cuillin just stood about ten feet away from the group and barked and barked...despite her dog pal, who is a really nice dog, leaving the group and going up to her, giving her face a lick as if to re assure her bless him, and then re joining us...anyway, thanks again Karen, its good to be able to work these things out with someone else who has experience of the Nervy Dogs! and what you said makes real sense for me and Cuilli...
Re: help with dog fears... What helped my cocker who is the nerviest little dog I have ever come across, is training in group sessions with other dogs. I took him to normal obedience classes held in a field with about 7 or so other dogs. To start with it was hellish for me. I am so used to very quiet dogs able to focus even in stressful situations that I had to learn to keep my cool with an absolute lunatic at the end of the lead. But little by little he learnt to keep his focus on me and to learn despite feeling uncomfortable by the presence of the other dogs. Once I started taking him out beating he had to climb another steep learning curve. The other dogs would be not just working along side of him, in the beaters' truck they would be right on top of him (sometimes quite literally). In a very short time he would take it all in his stride and no longer bat an eye lid when meeting new dogs and sharing the floor of the beaters' truck with them or the back of a car. Here is a photo of him on shoot day sharing a cage with a whole lot of dogs he had never met before!
Re: help with dog fears... That is one squashed van! Just trying to imagine Cuillin squashed in a van with dogs she never met before...! Thanks, the group dog training is something that would help Cuilli too I think, I guess it would be more intense than but similar to her 'distract with a ball while other dogs mill about' stuff, she would learn to keep her focus on me rather than the other dogs. The trainer at the dog's local obedience school knows C and said she thought a regular indoor class environment would be too much for her, but she is talking about setting up some group situations with her own dogs (spaniels, C is petrified of one of them for some reason) in our local park which C would go to..their Gun Dog trainer runs group sessions as well, another possibility. I will explore...
Re: help with dog fears... The gundog training is definitely helping with Poppy, Debsie. She loves it, and it is giving her a lot more confidence. Also, in that situation the dogs dont play with each other (unless they break out!!), so while they do interact, it is in a much more controlled manner. It might really be a good thing for Cuillin.
