I was wondering if there is a consensus on diet for puppies. I intended to make my own but was advised by the vet today to feed a complete dry food for the 1st 6 months. I'd also like some pointers to healthy recipes too. I have just defrosted a heart for him and now wondering what to do with it!
Re: Home cooked/raw or shop bought food? We use Hill's Science Diet -- the large breed dry food for puppies.
Re: Home cooked/raw or shop bought food? [quote author=sophmiller link=topic=7884.msg110645#msg110645 date=1411054654] I was wondering if there is a consensus on diet for puppies. [/quote] No, definitely not. There are as many opinions as there are brands of kibble. Well, more than that including versions of raw feeding. [quote author=sophmiller link=topic=7884.msg110645#msg110645 date=1411054654] was advised by the vet today to feed a complete dry food for the 1st 6 months. [/quote] You might be interested in this article: http://pippamattinson.com/are-vets-driving-raw-feeders-away/
Re: Home cooked/raw or shop bought food? My breeders said only feed the kibble (including as training treats) for 6 months. The idea is to avoid developing allergies. So I have stuck to that. My clicker trainer said it is good to stick to that if your puppy happily accepts it's kibble as a treat. Vets have loads of training and exams so I always think they know more than me. (Don't always think they get it right but they do have the training behind them) :
Re: Home cooked/raw or shop bought food? [quote author=Jane Martin link=topic=7884.msg110686#msg110686 date=1411064999] My breeders said only feed the kibble (including as training treats) for 6 months. The idea is to avoid developing allergies. [/quote] Completely appreciate Jane is reporting an opinion, but I think we have to say if anyone has any evidence to support this view, please post links to reputable studies...
Re: Home cooked/raw or shop bought food? [quote author=JulieT link=topic=7884.msg110693#msg110693 date=1411066331] [quote author=Jane Martin link=topic=7884.msg110686#msg110686 date=1411064999] My breeders said only feed the kibble (including as training treats) for 6 months. The idea is to avoid developing allergies. [/quote] Completely appreciate Jane is reporting an opinion, but I think we have to say if anyone has any evidence to support this view, please post links to reputable studies... [/quote] That's interesting. I appreciate that evidence is important, and I am sure evidence-based practices are the holy grail, but probably aspirational in this case. Just going to chip in that there is a "similar" attitude to feeding babies and weaning i.e. feeding milk (preferably breast milk) for the first 6 months exclusively is thought to reduce allergies in youngsters. Sorry can;t quote the evidence with this but could look if you like. This just kind of sounds similar. I would hardly equate the use of even "good quality" complete dry food to the use of breast milk in humans however! It just piqued my curiosity as to what dogs do in nature......how long do they remain on mother's milk? what age would they be "weaned" without human intervention? surely they would then be in nature weaned on raw meat type products? I wonder how much wheat, rice, corn, and the numerous other substances that make up the premium foods would be readily accesible in nature. Sorry for the odd turn of the thread. My mind sometimes makes bizarre leaps :
Re: Home cooked/raw or shop bought food? Experimentally, if you want to create an atopic dog (allergy to environmental allergens such as dust mites, pollens, etc) then the best way to do it is to take a young pup, less than 16 weeks of age, and give it a viral infection at the same time as introducing the allergen you want it to react to in the future. The theory behind this is that the immune system responds to eliminate the viral infection and there is a "bystander" reaction in that the immune system also reacts to the allergen at the same time. A genetic predisposition in the pup to develop atopic disease also helps. (Food intolerance/allergy is not thought to be heritable in the same way.) So, what has this to do with our puppies? When you obtain a young puppy, two things are likely to happen. Firstly, the pup gets vaccinated and if the vaccines are "live", then effectively it is given a viral infection to which we want the immune system to react. Secondly, we change the pups environment from breeder to home and supply a host of potential new allergens. For example, kennel born pups will suddenly be exposed to housedust mites, summer born pups to grass pollens in the garden, etc. So in essence we supply allergens and a viral infection at the same time, and if your pup is genetically predisposed to develop atopic disease you are supplying good conditions to create a future allergy. It is worth noting that spring/summer born pups are statistically more likely to be pollen allergic in the future. There is some evidence (and the evidence is not robust enough to get support in a Cochrane review of atopic disease) that in allergy-predisposed breeds (particularly West Highland Whites) it may be worth feeding them a non-allergenic diet through the vaccination period, the components of the diet being stuff you don't want to feed as an adult hence if an allergy does develop it will be to things you don't need to feed to an adult. Most folk have problems with this though, as there are very few non-allergenic diets that are suitable for growing pups of this age, and sudden changes in diet are very likely to provoke diarrhoea in a young pup. If gut damage occurs during diarrhoea, the guts may become "leaky" to allergens and hence future allergies may be more likely. When parvovirus first became an issue back in the 1980's, pups which survived the disease quite frequently went on to develop allergies. Similarly, kennelling pups through the vaccination period and not letting them contact people, cats, other animals or into vehicles or their new homes until after 16 weeks of age might reduce the incidence of allergies to these things in adults. This has huge implications for socialisation though, and behavioural issues may become significant. Many, many more dogs are re-homed or euthanased for intractable behaviour issues than for allergies. And many, many more pups die because they are not vaccinated than do because they have an allergy. I can see no reason immunologically to keep the pup on the same kibble diet for six months to reduce allergies. I can see how limiting access to potential future foods during vaccination might be helpful. Sorry JulieT I haven't got time to dig out all the references for this stuff right now, but it is not controversial in the dermatology world and there are plenty of supporting papers.
Re: Home cooked/raw or shop bought food? That's absolutely fascinating, Lochan! [quote author=Lochan link=topic=7884.msg111033#msg111033 date=1411135754] I can see no reason immunologically to keep the pup on the same kibble diet for six months to reduce allergies. I can see how limiting access to potential future foods during vaccination might be helpful. [/quote] hmm.....so the accounts of allergies improving when a kibble fed dog (kibble fed as a puppy) is switched to raw - if raw food was not fed as a puppy - might have something to do with this? Or more likely if the source of food (protein etc) changes. Or have I made several spurious links there?
Re: Home cooked/raw or shop bought food? Food allergies are best diagnosed by a total change of diet. Blood tests may be unreliable. A dermatologist will take a detailed history of what the dog has been fed up until this point and then compile a list of what it hasn't eaten before and thereafter create a novel diet which may be home cooked or raw depending on owner preferences. Changing to a non-allergenic kibble will also help, where the diet has been hydrolysed so that each molecule is too small for the immune system to recognise it. There is a huge difference between using a hypoallergenic kibble (the majority) and a non-allergenic kibble (only a few available). It is not the difference between kibble and home-cooked and raw that is the issue, it is feeding a totally different diet devoid of exposure to previous potential allergens that achieves the improvement. And then there is the whole question of changing to diets which contain high levels of essential fatty acids - a dog with atopic disease, not food allergy/intolerance may improve on such a diet leading to a misdiagnosis of food allergy/intolerance. It's a minefield!
Re: Home cooked/raw or shop bought food? I use Skinners puppy lamb & rice. Bouncer is piling on the pounds with it.
Re: Home cooked/raw or shop bought food? Fascinating. I am wondering now how this might tie in withGypsy's 3 vaccinations and specific GD food and no extras. Going to have to absorb this some more.
Re: Home cooked/raw or shop bought food? GDBA policy is for three parvo vaccines finishing at 16 weeks in line with WSAVA guidelines. In my experience their food recommendations are more based around getting a good quality food for lots of pups at a reasonable price, and the "no extras" is mostly to stop bad feeding habits - it is not uncommon for guide dogs to become overweight. Statistically they are much, much more likely to have problems with atopic disease associated with dust mite allergy than any other form of allergy.
Re: Home cooked/raw or shop bought food? [quote author=Lochan link=topic=7884.msg111232#msg111232 date=1411162098] Statistically they are much, much more likely to have problems with atopic disease associated with dust mite allergy than any other form of allergy. [/quote] Might this be hereditary resulting from the breeding programme?
Re: Home cooked/raw or shop bought food? [quote author=JulieT link=topic=7884.msg111238#msg111238 date=1411163683] [quote author=Lochan link=topic=7884.msg111232#msg111232 date=1411162098] Statistically they are much, much more likely to have problems with atopic disease associated with dust mite allergy than any other form of allergy. [/quote] Might this be hereditary resulting from the breeding programme? [/quote] Absolutely. Atopic disease has a strong hereditary predisposition. But even in the general non guide dog population atopy is much, much more common than food allergy/intolerance.
Re: Home cooked/raw or shop bought food? Just my opinion but I believe feeding a complete commercial food is best until they stop growing, I tend to go onto home cooked at about 2 years once I know if I make a mistake it won't affect their growth and development. I have done that with all my dogs over the past 30 years with no problems. But it's just my opinion and belief I wouldn't dream of imposing it on anyone else. Have nightmares still about one forum where raw feeders treated it like a religion and tried to convert by any means everyone to do it !
