Ok this is going to sound bizarre but it is my dogs I'm talking about so maybe not. I've mentioned before about how excited my dogs get with my OH. Not just the first time they see him but every time even if it's only been 5 minutes. As he's off work for 6 days I decided to start operation boring. He is under strict instructions not to interact in any way, no touching, talking or looking at the dogs if they are attention seeking. Jumping up at him, diving on him on the couch, licking etc. Yesterday when I came in with the dogs I left the doors open between mine and my mums. I went in my mums and left the dogs with the OH. They didn't settle for half an hour, pacing about excited, jumping at him even then they were on alert. Having observed their behaviour it occurred to me that until about 7 pm when they settle down with him and sleep they don't see him as a 'pack member' but a visitor. They therefore greet him as they would a visitor every time they see him. They thankfully don't mug visitors like they do the OH they are much more polite with their excitement : I suppose they aren't used to him being home during the day. In the evening their normal routine takes over because he's supposed to be there. Any ideas other than ignoring the attention seeking for making him less interesting and a 'pack member' Seriously how did I manage to get such weird dogs !!!!!
Re: How to be in the pack? I think you have interesting dogs! Charlie get ignored until he is quiet, then he gets a fuss, then he will settle. I have a work colleague who is very much a cat person. Charlie constantly wants to jump all over him, and finds him endlessly fascinating. I honestly think this is because Charlie doesn't feel he has "greeted" this person, so is constantly trying to do so. I was interested to see at Greyfriars, that each person is always careful to "greet" each dog, they think it's a necessary part of making dogs relax. I love my colleague, but I'll never invite him for a weekend again, it was very stressful! Much sympathy!
Re: How to be in the pack? I don't mean it to be rude julie but he probably smells of cats. Perhaps Charlies thinking 'where is it where's he hiding it ?' ;D How did they greet the dogs at greyfriars Julie? I'm assuming they had to do it calmly? The problem is although the OH loves S&S and used to do a lot with Murphy my old lab he's not a natural animal person if you know what I mean. Also these two are so different to Murphy. Whereas the OH cold make a big fuss of murph, get him excited and he would calm down when he'd stopped these two stay high as kites for ages. I wonder if that's part of the problem that he never greets them properly because they get so excited so they feel they have to keep greeting him ? ??? Interesting is one way to describe them I suppose.
Re: How to be in the pack? Don't know, really. It's interesting you say your OH is not an animal person. I've been really interested in the importance they seem to put on greeting at Grefriars, I must try to speak to them in more detail about it (I have a bit, but haven't had the chance to really grill them about it). The newer people (students and observers) often try to withhold a greeting to wait until Charlie is calm (drives me nuts if they repeat the sit command, he is far too excited to be able to listen) - which doesn't ever really happen (in a environment with things like appointments, waiting for Charlie to be calm is difficult : ). The more experienced people quickly give Charlie a quiet fuss, often kneeling, lowering their faces so he can reach them without jumping up, often holding him close, and then adopt a "right, we've said hello, now let's move on" attitude. The second definitely is more successful with Charlie. My vet does the same.
Re: How to be in the pack? Thanks Julie. A problem we have is getting them to sit when excited especially scout. His bottom is wagging so hard and his feet paddling so much he can't sit. All the stuff I've read on greeting etc says to ignore the attention seeking, which OH is trying to do and give them an alternative that you can then praise but then we have the problem of the wagging bum syndrome which won't let them sit. They will sort of eventually but it's not what you'd call calm. :-\
Re: How to be in the pack? Yes, that's exactly what Charlie is like. I always do my click for calm / waiting and rewarding calm. But at Greyfriars they don't, and they couldn't, because my appointment would be over before Charlie had calmed down. :. I have to say, what they do works best - in that situation, anyway. I'll try to video my back-of-the-kitchen with my clicker routine, which is what I do with Charlie - I've been meaning to try get some feedback on it for a while. We've had to go back to the beginning with his favourite dog walker since he didn't see her for 6 weeks. Not entirely sure it's practical for someone who is in the house all the time! Plus, one the dog walker has reached me, I give her the lead and she walks off. So there is a natural end to it. [quote author=JulieT link=topic=4846.msg60303#msg60303 date=1394614840] I had Charlie on a lead at the back of the kitchen, my clicker and treats. Person came into view. If Charlie's feet stayed still, C&T. If not, person stepped back out of view. Then one step towards Charlie, C&T or step back. Worked up to person standing beside Charlie pretending to have a conversation with me. And Charlie's feet had stayed still. Etc etc and repeat - with dog walker, dad, SIL, brother, cleaner, friend, postman.... And repeat again, in a different room. And repeat again, with no lead but Charlie behind a barrier. And repeat again, in the vet's waiting room... [/quote]
Re: How to be in the pack? Thank you Julie that's great. What you do is a bit like BAT for frustrated greeters, you mentioned it on that thread, but with the BAT the dog moves towards the person. However I think your method might be better as you are actually clicking the dog for remaining calm and having been doing the BAT method I think keeping them still would achieve a better level of calm. I dont know if that makes sense. : I will give that a go with the OH even if i only do it the first time they see him. I'm still clinging to the hope that repeating these calming exercises will eventually work and they will learn to be calmer themselves. Sorry another question how calm do you expect of Charlie. For example when scout eventually gets his bottom on the ground his front feet might still pad up and down. Would you accept that ? PS sorry I'm being such a pest Julie but would you mind explaining what you do at the vets as I think that would be very helpful for us at the vets. Unfortunately I'd be c&t for not barking rather than not being excited. :-\ For example should I c&t in the vets for focus on me continuously. If they bark regain their attention c&t for looking at me again.?
Re: How to be in the pack? [quote author=Jen link=topic=5477.msg69165#msg69165 date=1397827846] . I'm still clinging to the hope that repeating these calming exercises will eventually work and they will learn to be calmer themselves. [/quote] I bloomin' well hope so! I know they work for Charlie, we can walk passed anyone in the street or common now, and he doesn't try to say hello (unless they are super exciting, with balls or skateboards). Inside is still tricky. Dogs at the common really, really hard still. [quote author=Jen link=topic=5477.msg69165#msg69165 date=1397827846] Sorry another question how calm do you expect of Charlie. For example when scout eventually gets his bottom on the ground his front feet might still pad up and down. Would you accept that ? [/quote] Funny you should say that! I was just thinking about the walk this morning, we'd met several dogs on the way back to the car, and I was disappointed my big gun seahide didn't stand up to the number of dogs around. I was asking myself what I expected, really. When I first did the kitchen calm greeting exercise, I didn't think about "how calm" and just insisted on still feet from the get go. I think this is right for Charlie, as he is either sat still or launching himself like an Exocet missile. I'm not sure he has a scale! It's just calm or bonkers with him. I don't mind swaps between sit and down, things like that. [quote author=Jen link=topic=5477.msg69165#msg69165 date=1397827846] would you mind explaining what you do at the vets as I think that would be very helpful for us at the vets. Unfortunately I'd be c&t for not barking rather than not being excited. :-\ For example should I c&t in the vets for focus on me continuously. If they bark regain their attention c&t for looking at me again.? [/quote] I had a disappointing exercise at the vets yesterday. He had to go in starved, so couldn't use treats. We were rubbish. Anyway, previously, I got the receptionist to come out from behind her desk, step forward and back, just like the kitchen exercise - I did this over the Christmas holidays when they were quiet and the receptionist was bored. Normally, I get Charlie into a corner opposite but off to the side of the door and we make ourselves comfy. Other dogs come in, and I C&T for feet still and no reaction. When he fails, he launches himself at the door/dog and I do nothing (apart from to tell other owners not to let their dogs approach). He will suddenly give up, and look at me, then I C&T. If he continues to look at me, I C&T again, and sometimes keep his attention for minutes at a time. Other times he goes back to scrabbling for the other dog, so I have to wait again. I have not been systematic enough at proofing the automatic look at me, so I'm going back over that again now. What do yours do at the vets? Bark at the vet? Did you say they were excited and nervous at the same time?
Re: How to be in the pack? Thank you so much Julie. Basically they bark at anything that moves at the vets. Funnily enough they aren't too bad with other dogs. I think I've mentioned I've changed vets. The one we go to now has only been open a few years and it's just one vet. So far there hasn't been anybody else in the waiting room when we've gone in or out. He tries to structure his appointments like that so nobody has to wait unless there's an emergency. At the old vets we could wait half an hour or more which really got them stressed. It's basically all nerves but it is either barking or bouncing about not able to settle as if excited combined in a big bundle of stress. Not fun for any of us. Just having a bit of a break through as I type. Left the doors open again and I've gone into mums so the dogs if they choose are alone with OH. They have just come into me and flopped. It's only taken 15 mins yesterday it took 30. Not sure what state they've left OH in. ;D Thank you so much for all your help with this Julie. I've been wanting to ask about your click for calm methods but I know how busy you are. I really appreciate you taking the time to help me.
Re: How to be in the pack? Hi Jen & Julie, it's interesting this calm greeting subject, having failed miserably with this I now put Hattie & Charlie in their beds when the door bell rings and after about 5 minutes when they are calm I release them to say "hello" and this has really helped, I have greeted my friends etc. so there seems to be no reason to go crazy . I used to have the same problem when David came home from work, but him simply coming in the door and totally ignoring them, no eye contact nothing, putting his stuff down and saying hello to the family first, when Hattie & Charlie are calm they get a fuss and this now works perfectly. I gave up on people just coming in with their squeeky voices getting them all over excited and then wondering why 60 kg of dogs were jumping all over them : The boiler man came on Wednesday to the side gate, Hattie & Charlie out in the yard, barked like mad jumping up the silly man leant down sticking his hand through the bars talking to them and just making matters worse whilst I was trying to calmly get them inside. I just give up and needless to say he did not get a cuppa Good luck with it all x
Re: How to be in the pack? That sounds good Jen, flopping and chilling! It doesn't sound like fun at the vets. . Very good points, Helen, yes agree. Charlie his pen for comings and goings - to the extent that he doesn't even react to the doorbell now - but he eventually has to come out, and unless the person has left, obviously, they may as well have just arrived as far as Charlie is concerned! Sigh....I hope it'll all improve when he can have some proper exercise. Or he grows up a bit! :
Re: How to be in the pack? Thats strange that your Charlie can see your visitors from his pen but when you let him out it's like your friends just arrived - hmm. Hattie & Charlie can't see my visitors arrive as I close the door so they calm down, do you think that makes a difference? How did you stop the barking at the door bell? I am just about to disconnect the damn thing : I have tried getting them to sit infront of me and treat for silence but if someone else gets to the door first …. :
Re: How to be in the pack? Charlie reacts the same whenever he meets someone, regardless of how long they have been in the house, or regardless of whether he can see them or not in advance. If he is in his pen, he is calm. I guess because he knows nothing happens until or unless he is let out of his pen. If I think the greeting is going to be super wild, I'll put him in his crate and the person has to say hello to him in the crate! As in practically get in the crate with him. Charlie doesn't bark, so I've never had a doorbell bark problem. He used to run to the door though (i was just getting stay on mat when the doorbell rang to work before his injury) but when he got injured, we just stopped allowing him anywhere near the front door. I guess he just gave up reacting at all. He only reacts now when it's obvious he is going to get to say hello. So stopping him saying hello works. But also results in him being shut away.
Re: How to be in the pack? I'm trying to train the OH to ignore the dogs Helen its as hard as training them. He is usually already in before they come in so the routine is to race through the door and dive on him. Maybe I need to alter the routine. Perhaps if he comes in from another room once they are in he can try what your David does. Thanks Helen something else for me to try will have a go tomorrow. Julie I can't guarantee it but having had an excitable lab but with out the nerve issue I'd put money on Charlie calming down as he grows up. He's still only young. Get him passed three years and calming will start to come naturally. Thank you both
Re: How to be in the pack? [quote author=Jen link=topic=5477.msg69198#msg69198 date=1397847311] Julie I can't guarantee it but having had an excitable lab but with out the nerve issue I'd put money on Charlie calming down as he grows up. He's still only young. Get him passed three years and calming will start to come naturally. [/quote] I hope so. My lovely vet thinks so (and he knows Charlie very well and has handled him quite a lot, and has labradors himself). He thinks that step one with managing an excitable young lab is to make sure it gets enough exercise - and that's the first problem. Charlie was always previously off lead, barely on it, really, and he was pretty much fine. He was a bouncy, young labrador. The vet thinks Charlie is basically perfectly normal, but under exercised and over frustrated. 16 weeks to go...
Re: How to be in the pack? I think charlie is basically normal aswell and Im no vet. I've not met a lab yet that isn't excitable. I believe they exist but I've yet to meet one. . They might be well trained but the excitement is there waiting to be allowed out. ;D He'll get there Julie I'm sure of it.
Re: How to be in the pack? Thanks Jen! I hope so. I think this thread has proved your previous point about managing excitement and nervousness is really, very, very, similar. To make you smile, I hope: on the common tonight, another dog at about 15m - a young bitch. ln heat? Maybe, his reaction was extreme, first time I've seen this anyway. Tried everything I had to get his attention back on me. Nope. I was irrelevant to his determination to this dog. I thought "right!". And emptied my treat bag over his head! A shower of kibble and salmon strips. It worked! ;D ;D ;D
Re: How to be in the pack? ;D ;D ;D Maybe that's the answer Julie a bag of treats over the head conquers all even love well lust.
Re: How to be in the pack? [quote author=JulieT link=topic=5477.msg69218#msg69218 date=1397852588] To make you smile, I hope: on the common tonight, another dog at about 15m - a young bitch. ln heat? Maybe, his reaction was extreme, first time I've seen this anyway. Tried everything I had to get his attention back on me. Nope. I was irrelevant to his determination to this dog. I thought "right!". And emptied my treat bag over his head! A shower of kibble and salmon strips. It worked! ;D ;D ;D [/quote] ;D ;D ;D Great I love it. I might try throwing chicken pieces on the ground infront of my Charlie ;D
Re: How to be in the pack? [quote author=charlie link=topic=5477.msg69368#msg69368 date=1397924226] [quote author=JulieT link=topic=5477.msg69218#msg69218 date=1397852588] To make you smile, I hope: on the common tonight, another dog at about 15m - a young bitch. ln heat? Maybe, his reaction was extreme, first time I've seen this anyway. Tried everything I had to get his attention back on me. Nope. I was irrelevant to his determination to this dog. I thought "right!". And emptied my treat bag over his head! A shower of kibble and salmon strips. It worked! ;D ;D ;D [/quote] ;D ;D ;D Great I love it. I might try throwing chicken pieces on the ground infront of my Charlie ;D [/quote] When Lilly "found" a chicken carcass when we were on holiday - I say chicken carcass, it was some kind of boney structure, found in the middle of nowhere, no idea whether it was "cooked bones" or not - we chased her around and emptied her treat bag full of sausages as close as possible to her, but it didin't work. Just ended up having to pick them all up again and wait until she had finished her ill-gotten gains. Thankfully no harm was done. Must stock up on salmon strips. ;D
