Discussion in 'Dog Training: Principle and Practice' started by Rosie, Oct 23, 2016.
I have no words that I can put on the forum, for these terrible things that people do to dogs
With you all the way. My friend of 50 years works on cruelty cases for the rspca. And over the years I have heard some unrepeatable things. It just makes me sad and numb
Someone told me that if I stopped all the nambey pambey click and treating and used harsh words and a quick slap I'd get better results. Luckily he doesn't have a dog anymore and I keep Mabel away from him, even to the point where I change our walk if I think I'm going to meet him as he walks with his girlfriend and her dog. Even OH says beware and he normally likes everyone.
Sadly they walk among us. Best avoid them
One of the reasons I held off for getting a dog so long in Dubai was because there was such a total lack of training/dog facilities .In the 4 years I have owned Dexter that has improved greatly but positive reinforcement training is still in it's infancy.....I've met clicker trainers and they are pioneering change but it will take a long time.My experiences of the so called positive classes I have attended are to demonstrate the positive way...but if the dog or handler are struggling to get results,more punishing methods are used.Ive always had a chat with the trainer before I've registered to explain how I'm aspiring to work with Dexter and what I'm not prepared to df course this doesn't always make for a comfortable experience when I'm in a class and won't do an excercise in a certain way .....
Dubai doesn't have the regulation other countries have ,I know there's 'trainers ' set up here that have no qualifications and advertise their services based purely on the fact they've owned dogs all their lives .
Oh dear - now feeling very sub standard with regards my training and treatment of the dogs generally.
I really try to stick to the 'positive' but there is often just SO much going on that I have and do find myself shouting NO, or LEAVE with a stroppy voice. In my experience unless you are totally organised when being with your dog, its almost impossible not to fall short of the ideals in certain circumstances.
Probably just my chaotic life
@FayRose, I cannot think what is wrong with saying 'no' or 'leave' but can be said in a friendly tone of voice. I think it unfair that dogs have to guess what to do, I know they get rewarded for the right thing, but they do need to know if they are making a 'wrong' decision which in the long run, could cause them damage, ie running into the road, touching something hot, eating something poisonous. If done correctly they will not show worry, mine carry on smiling because they have never been punished. Although people will say that saying 'no' is a punishment!
Here's a thread with a very interesting link from a well-respected +R trainer you should read.
TLDR; it's not that positive reinforcement trainers never say no, they just never say no when training their dogs. During normal life, they will and do, because we're all human. BUT, it's not training your dog at all.
"Good training? Of course not. Since training requires change, I think it’s fair to say it’s no training at all. It’s just me being crabby and too lazy to deal with the dogs properly."
What @snowbunny said. I try - really hard - to only use positive training with my dogs. Both me and OH are absolutely committed to bringing up our dogs with only kind methods. But we both fall short time to time in living and managing the dogs - and we give each other hell for it.
Once, Betsy bit OH so hard he smacked her on the nose (not very hard) - she had her teeth through the bit of skin between his thumb and first finger, and he just smacked her to try to make her let go. I then gave him hell, and he felt dreadful. Betsy was fine, and has no fear of our hands.
Another time, I had spent all morning preparing some material to send to a client, and was just about to go to the post office. Charlie counter surfed on the kitchen table and had his teeth on the envelope, I screamed 'NOOOOOOO!' as I dashed across the kitchen. OH gave me hell for not having sufficient self control to simply say 'leave it' in my normal training voice. Charlie was just surprised.
I think that a positively trained dog, who has a robust personality, isn't going to be traumatised by the odd human slip. If you do it day in and day out though, and this is how you routinely treat your dogs, then they are going to learn to be wary of you, and you will damage them.
I second Julie....it's hard to be consistent all the time ,And really hard in the course of real daily life,the main thing is to keep trying and learning and re evaluate when things don't go according to plan .Note I used the word 'aspire' to describe my approach to training my dog!!!! He's my first dog and whilst I thought I knew 'something ' in preparation for him I quickly realised I knew 'nothing' !!!! I found the Forum whilst struggling with pulling,his tail ailment and facing a diagnosis of Giardia .....what a silver lining to a collection of such miserable events.I' m miles off being able to call myself a positive only trainer ,I'd love to be able to but I mess up all the time,but I will keep trying and trying to be better .You only need to hear me say 'drop it ' in the voice of Satan when Dexter picks up a date off the ground and doesn't drop it on the first request to realise I've got a long way to go .....hangs head I shame .....
Yep, the real world is a bit different. Thankfully our dogs are very forgiving....I tend to a bit critical of OH with the dogs, yet when Bramble managed to stuff three live chickens in her mouth..not all at the same time, he was very calm with her. The one time she grabbed a chicken with me, I screamed at her like a banshee poor thing! Luckily no chooks were harmed at all, not a scratch, just minus a few feathers.
The hardest thing I find is trying not to say "ah ah" or "no"...specially in the mornings when things despite the best planning can get a bit hectic!
I used to have a dreadful Ah-Ah habit, picked up a long time ago from a traditional spaniel trainer I once trained with. I can go for ages without doing it, but even now sometimes it slips out.
The thing that helped me stop doing it was SWMBO telling me 'for god's sake, will you please stop saying Ah-Ah! Since you've been saying it all morning it's obvious that it doesn't bl**dy work, does it?'.
Thanks for your reactions to and comments on my earlier remarks.
I'll just clarify that I haven't shouted in a banshee voice at Molly - or previous dogs - when training. Having said that though, I am aware that I am not as consistent as I should be with my training methods, and I'm sure, despite my attempts not to show impatience, the dog picks up on my mood.
This pup in particular seems to react to my mood by simply looking at me, I don't even have to speak to her. Brief example: Following a heated disagreement with a duvet cover upstairs (oh how I hate changing those things) on returning to the room she was in, she looked at me, then walked off to her bed and lay down, all the while watching me. I had not said a word either to her, or to myself during the duvet struggle, just got more and more agitated. Normally when I come back into a room, Molly rushes over to greet me, wagging furiously and mouthing my hands.
I feel I have to be very careful and aware of her reactions, more so than with any other dog we've had. Maybe its a bitch thing.
The reason I don't use "no" is nothing to do with it being negative, it's just some kind of marker in my view. BUT "no" - what does it mean? We humans use for so many different things, there's no way a dog can tune in to it, and it is, therefore, meaningless.
I think "ah-ha" is intended to be an interrupter isn't it? Like a tongue-click, or a lip-smack. I doesn't sound nice to me "ah-ha" - something you might say to a naughty child. Our trainer (who I have to say is not 100% +R,) will take the pee out us mercilessly if we make clicky-mouth noises - references to Skippy the Bush Kangaroo echo around the room.
Ah-ah could be trained to mean something but it usually isn't - it is usually used as a punishment (in a cross voice or with a lead jerk etc) or a punishment marker (a threat, the ah-ah has in the past been associated with crossness, intimidation or another form of punishment).
My interrupter is a tongue click! So your trainer can say what he likes about Skippy the Bush Kangaroo. Both my dogs will reorientate to me on a tongue click. It works - extremely reliably - because I've trained it properly.
yup - I ignore him too. He's OK with me doing my own thing - eg stop for slack lead, he laughs, but it's just his way - we get on well & he sees Coco's improvement week on week, he knows what I do works.
Sometimes I think my OH has the right idea. He says Tupatup when he wants the dogs to stop doing something and Chup-chup when he wants them to do something both in cheerful, light tones. All accompanied by hand gestures. And he is absolutely consistent - always.
I was astonished to see that OH has trained Charlie to roll on his back and put his paws in the air (so OH can wipe tummy and paws after a walk) on the cue Chup-chup accompanied by OH rubbing his own tummy! It seems that Chup-chup is an attention getting noise, and the dog then looks for the hand gesture.
Grumble, grumble, I really think Charlie should make it harder for OH!
I'm tongue-clicker, too.
Can anyone recommend a good starter book to re-orient yourself if you've been drowning in Cesar Milan for the past 10 years? I realise after reading a lot of threads lately (how to deal with thunder/gunshot fear, when to feed your dog, to do/not do corrections) that my current training indoctrination seems to be a weird mishmash of positive plus a lot of the dominance/submissive/pack leader thing that was in fashion when I last raised a puppy.
When i was first starting out, I was told to read Monks of New Skete. That book I totally hated. I did find some aspects of CM to be helpful, especially as it made me look at my dog as a DOG and not small furry human. I will always be grateful for CM's dog Daddy improving the attitude towards pit bulls. However, a lot of the stuff that he says you can't do (feed your dog first, comfort your dog when he is afraid, have your dog sit on your lap or on your bed) I either did and felt guilty about or didn't do and felt guilty about. Improving my education before a new puppy would be a good idea.
On the other hand, I was out in a crowded area the other day and some guy ran up to me, yelled something and grabbed my left breast with his hand. My first reaction? My very best "Eaaaaagh"-don't-you-dare-do-that-naughty-thing dog training noise which surprised him so much he let go of my boob and ran in the opposite reaction. So who's to say Cesar Milan isn't useful for something?
I really like Patricia McConnell books. I read them a lot.Gwen Bailey too.dogs by the coppingers is interesting. Love anything by turid rugaas and am about to read the culture clash by jean Donaldson again because it's comforting. The genius of dogs by Brian hare & Vanessa woods. I like to read. and as for that vile man I hope has an interesting life. Glad you scared him hope you were ok