After this mornings walk i don't see why i should bother with barley any more, i just want to give up as nothing works and i don't see why i should put loads of effort and work into him when he goes and does what he done this morning, sometimes i feel that he is better off living with someone else. :'( We had met up with some of the SAR people to do some training and go for a walk, puzzle came too but she did not participate in the walk. We were walking in a fully fenced secure area that had a few trees but lots of heathland, it was a massive area. Dad stayed at the car with puzzle, whilst me, barley and three other people and dogs went for a walk in the secure area. To start with barley was on lead, but he was being such a good boy i let him off, as he should not be able to escape as the area was fully fenced, the only bits that he could escape from where the gates. He was being really good off lead staying close to the group and if he did stop and get left behind a bit he ran to catch up with us, whilst walking round we passed several gates and he showed no interest in them, but on the gate the lead to the dirt track that either led to the car park one way or the road the other way, he and another dog found something interesting the other side of the gate, the other dog came back when it was called but barley turned deaf, once he was happily sniffing a bush i tried to grab him but he was too quick, and to him the game was on, to start with he headed towards the road, the only thing i could do was stand at the gate calling him hoping he would listen and try to bribe him towards me with treats, but he was having no of it, if i stepped towards him he moved further towards the road, i did not want to turn my back on him and run in the other direction as i had no guarantee of him following me, and he could just have easily then run off in either direction, the only way i could move was towards the car park whilst still keeping an eye on him, which luckily he followed and once i started running he ran past me, once he saw dad i thought that it was game over but no, he would not go anywhere dad or me or anyone else from SAR, it was eventually a kind member of the public who got ho,d of him as he ran over to say hello to their dog. This episode left me in tears, as neither of us have any trust left in him anymore, all that hard work and effort i have put into him has not made any effect on him at all, it just shows how little he has actually bonded with us, nothing works, he will recall for very high value food but there can not be any other dogs around him as he will growl at them because i have high value food, so we could not have used that today, and we struggle to use it up at the park as people are stupid and do not listen to you when you tell them to keep their dog away, sometimes i feel like not holding barley back and letting him have a go at their dog so they get the message, but i would feel bad for the dog on the receiving end and for having a stupid irresponsible owner. I really do feel like giving up on barley's training and just focusing on puzzle's as she listens and want to learn, unlike barley who is the opposite, and she fun to train and i love training her, she is a joy to train, but barley is hard work and even though i put lots and lots of effort into him we never seem to make any progress whatsoever.
Re: I feel like giving up Oh dear Annabelle it's terrible when you have a horrible experience like that I feel sure though from what you've told us already that you could think of quite a few things that Barley has got better at as a result of your training and I think you'd miss him if he wasn't there. We had a horrible walk this morning too, I was rushed and needed to take Riley and Lizzie together. Riley wouldn't do anything I asked and I got so cross with him I stomped my foot like a toddler having a tantrum. I must have looked ridiculous! I am 41 after all ! This afternoon though we've had an absolutely lovely time and while Riley's not perfect neither am I so we'll just have to put up with each other On a slightly more serious note.....Riley has absolutely no road sense at all and while his recall is vastly improved I still don't trust him at certain places on our walks because they go near gates or car parks, I always make him walk to heel and usually slip his lead on. My friend who's dog wouldn't dream of running off thinks I'm mad but better safe than sorry I think and some behaviours just need managing as well as training
Re: I feel like giving up Can only echo what Barbara has just said Annabelle , we all have " those days/walks " I wouldnt belive anyone who said that they didnt either My Sam is usually very obedient but on the beach on Tuesday afternoon , he was the devils own , just got hyped up with all the children and other dogs , I just wanted to be anywhere but there As I see it , they put a paw wrong , we get anxious, stressed and they sense it, our moods do rub off onto them for sure . Put today down to experience but forget it , tomorrow is another day
Re: I feel like giving up Hi annabelle I know exactly how you feel. It used to happen with my old dog and it happens with Scott and Scout. You feel like you take 100 steps back and what was the point. There is a point though you love him and he loves you. I promise he has bonded to you. Different dogs show it in different ways. Scott loves to cuddle Scout would rather not. Scott will respond quickly if I have to shout Scout looks indifferent but Scout will do as I ask quicker and more enthusiastically than Scott (not every time obviously ) Murphy my old lab was 'my dog' followed me like a shadow couldn't have bonded more but if he was off lead and saw somebody he would go no matter what the distance. I'd be blue in the face shouting nothing until he'd been to say hello. : Also I don't know how true this is but traditionally it is said bitches are easier than dogs to train etc. they are usually more biddable (exceptions obviously) and are used for working more than male dogs in general which may explain why Puzzle seems easier to train than Barley. Remember though even when he drives you mad ignoring you your his Annabelle he will look after you like you look after him. Deep breath, drop shoulders and think how lovely he can be. Jen
Re: I feel like giving up Hi Annabelle, I completely know where your coming from and I have felt exactly the way you are feeling about Charlie. Have you started Total Recall with Barley? Whilst it hasn't cured Charlies' recall/absconding it has given us a basis to work from. You have made progress with Barley and as I have been told many times before we forget the progress that we have made with difficult dogs, so please don't forget that and remember what Barley means to you Perhaps you could make a start with Total Recall and make yourself a training plan and then you can see the progress he WILL make. I am very lucky that I have use of an enclosed paddock to train Charlie and to keep him safe, would this be an option for you? I have had more bad days than I care to mention with Charlie and he has driven us pretty much over the edge, but somehow we just keep going because deep down I know we will make it with him even if there are people who don't. Keep the faith Annabelle, have a rest from training Barley and then start again, I find that really helps me. We are all always here when you feel like a rant. Everyone has supported me hugely through my attempts to train Charlie and frankly I would have given up a long time ago if it weren't for this forum Good luck
Re: I feel like giving up Hi Annabelle. As the others have said we've all been there just like you. The important thing to remember is it does get better. My dog, Lady was an absolute nightmare when she was a young puppy and, like you, had me reduced to tears at times when I just thought it was all a waste of time, I couldn't handle her, she was un-trainable, had serious social issues including jumping up and mouthing strangers who took it sometimes as an attack quite understandably, wouldn't recall, rolled in fox pooh when I was tired and then had to bath her, ripped out the telephone system for the third time, broke my wife's leg extremely badly needing plates and screws to put it all back together - I think I could extend this list much further! Never give up. Keep on doing what you are doing with Barley and before you know it he will start to get the message, I'm sure. At 4 yrs old, Lady has gone from nightmare to loving gentle affectionate companion. She's not perfect and every now and then lets me down big time, but I wouldn't be without her now. Looking back I think the trick is to not take things too seriously and look on the funny side of the puppy antics. A big HANG IN THERE form me! ;D
Re: I feel like giving up Echoing what the others have said, Annabelle. It's hard to put so much work into a dog and get a set back like this. Once you are ready to, take a look at exactly what happened and where you think it all went wrong, and see if you could address that, in order to move forward. You've made massive strides with this dog, and it's doubly hard when you have another dog that seems so "easy" in comparison. Don't be discouraged - we've all had episodes like this and we likely always will - after all dogs are living creatures and not robots so no matter how hard we train there's always a bit of the unknown as to how they will react in a given situation. Hang in there....take a break and get back at it when you're ready.
Re: I feel like giving up Hang in there Annabelle, you are so good for Barley. He may drive you mad at times, but you know you love him. Just take a step back, get your energy back, and have another go in a couple of days.
Re: I feel like giving up Ah Annabelle love,don't get downhearted,this is just one walk,on one day,and one naughty episode.please put it behind you and think of all the wonderful things you have done with Barley. I agree with what everyone says.......we have all been there,everyone has given you examples of naughtiness and embarrassments they have had.i had a good one only yesterday.....my friends are in town,my friend,her husband,their 8 year old son and their 6 year old daughter and they popped by to say hello with a present for Dexter.He barked the house down on their arrival....not unusual but he usually settles down really quickly....oh no,not this time,he barked and barked and barked........he was loving it!big grin on his face,tail wagging,having the best time ever!i had to put him behind his gate and close the door on him and he still carried in,I've never heard him yell so much!and of course I'd told them how good he is ....... Allow yourself a down day and do some fun stuff you enjoy with puzzle ,then dust yourself off and you will remember how much you love Barley x
Re: I feel like giving up Feel for you Annabelle Sometimes you just want to crawl off somewhere and cry..... Doing some stuff with puzzle will give you some confidence and positive vibes back I am sure. And today is a new day..... Remember how proud Barley has made you and try and put the bad bits behind you. Hoping you feel a bit better today. xx
Re: I feel like giving up Hi Annabelle, I hope you are ok & everyone has cheered you up. Don't worry about Barley having a naughty day. As much as Charlie is good he also has what i call his days of mischief He looks at me as if to say...whatever you want me to do it's not going to happen!! Just think of all the fantastic days you've had with Barley that will be enough to spur you on. Keep smiling even on the bad & frustrating days we all have them but you know we are hear to support you. Chin up x
Re: I feel like giving up Thank you all for your kind comments and support, much appreciated. Unfortunately this is not a one of episode, he has done this several times before, but not as bad, as he will eventually give in and let himself be caught by us but not yesterday. It is really frustrating with him as you will take 1 small step forward then 10 big steps back, and when you think you have cracked it he does the complete opposite and something out of the blue. Like with cutting his claws, he used to be quite good and would accept it but suddenly one time he tried to bite me whenever i went near him with the claw clippers but he has never had a bad experience with them and we have never cut his quick, and he has been like this since last year, we have tried desensitizing him to the clippers but nothing has worked, and now he has to be muzzled when we cut his claws.
Re: I feel like giving up Hello Annabelle. I am not sure if this has been part of a previous discussion but has he 'been castrated'? I have female labs but know from my friends who have male ones that this can make a difference to their temperament and often they have found that they have run off less once they have been done - anyone got any comments on this? My youngest, who is a 2 and a half year old female used to run off given half the chance too - now I just keep her on the lead where I feel I would stress at all if she were to run off i.e. Fields close to roads which are over-run with bunnies! Or loads of pheasants. High calibre treats only work for so long. I think the best advice, which has worked really well with all dogs I have had, is always to say good dog when they do come back to you (however raging we are and however we'd like to give the bad dog comment instead). I have then usually followed this up with a treat (even though I was chocking myself having to do this) and that makes them at least want to come back in the future. She is now much better and when I do let her off, which is for most of her walk, she does get a minuscule treat (I am so generous!) when she checks back in with me. As my older lab is so good at coming back, I also keep her near me if I see any imminent prospect of a carry on and this stops the younger one going off by herself - would you be able to use your other dog to help you here - rewarding them as well? Just an idea. Do stick with it though - as frustrating as it is, you will win out.
Re: I feel like giving up I think this is a common misconception. High calibre rewards will work for any dog and for the lifetime of that dog if used correctly in order to generate a trained response. Here is a link about the effective use of rewards which talks about the choice of reward and how to use reward schedules. It is important not to attempt to use rewards as lures as in this example given by Annabelle It is always problematical trying to use treats as a lure or bribe, especially in an emergency. This is because a lure is only useful when the surrounding distractions are less attractive to the dog than the lure itself. Which is rarely the case. This is why it takes time to build up a good recall response and proof it carefully, because we cannot effectively lure a dog away from strong distractions, we have to limit his options and create a trained response through rehearsing a rewarded recall in many different set ups.
Re: I feel like giving up [quote author=Susan Jay link=topic=3120.msg34759#msg34759 date=1384087781] Hello Annabelle. I am not sure if this has been part of a previous discussion but has he 'been castrated'? I have female labs but know from my friends who have male ones that this can make a difference to their temperament and often they have found that they have run off less once they have been done - anyone got any comments on this? [/quote] Yes he has been castrated, in my eyes he was done to early, before we could see his real temperment and character. If castrating was supposed to calm him down, then it would have better if he was not castrated in the first place. We cannot say that your theaory has worked as he was not let off at all before he was castrated, as he was still housebound or on very short lead walks. In other news, we have moved onto step 3 of total recall, pre-recall for older dogs. We have had a few setbacks, as since wednesday last week he has not had a walk or done any training other than total recall steps 1 and 2. I am not looking forward to walking him today as he is going to be a nightmare, and he is not going to be happy with a short road walk.
Re: I feel like giving up I don't mean to be awful or anything, but with you saying ''you're not looking forward to walking him'' you're only setting yourself and your dog up for failure, negativity and dog training don't go together, you have to have a positive attitude, if you don't, you're dog will pick up on that and be worse, and not walking him because of his behaviour will only serve to make his behaviour worse, so you then you take him for even less walks, and then when you do take him again, he will be worse, and then you wont want to walk him at all. I don't doubt that you aren't trying, you are doing the total recall training, but non of the training will work if he is hyped up due to lack of exercise. Him running of and not coming back when called shows a lack of respect for you, your dog does not respect you and so will not obey you, you need to assert yourself as his leader to gain respect from him. Training needs to start like he is a new puppy again, go back to basics with the recall training and obedience, make yourself the best thing in your dogs life, make your dog think you are worthy of coming back too whenever called, that you are more fun and more interesting than anything else around, be that dogs, people, birds, whatever. Can't he be on a long line when out on walks to at least give him some freedom and to make his walks longer so he is more manageable? Have you thought about whistle training? I know of a great tip, get your dog in front of you, make him focus on you, blow the whistle and give a treat, keep doing that until he realises that the whistle means he will get a treat and increase the distance between you and him and when you blow the whistle he should come, then you can start blowing the whistle at random times around the house and garden and he should come running to you at every whistle, then you can start to take him out the house and increase the distractions and he should eventually, with consistency and a positive attitude, come running no matter what.
Re: I feel like giving up [quote author=scoutpuppy link=topic=3120.msg35156#msg35156 date=1384288539] I don't mean to be awful or anything, but with you saying ''you're not looking forward to walking him'' you're only setting yourself and your dog up for failure, negativity and dog training don't go together, you have to have a positive attitude, if you don't, you're dog will pick up on that and be worse, and not walking him because of his behaviour will only serve to make his behaviour worse, so you then you take him for even less walks, and then when you do take him again, he will be worse, and then you wont want to walk him at all. I don't doubt that you aren't trying, you are doing the total recall training, but non of the training will work if he is hyped up due to lack of exercise. Him running of and not coming back when called shows a lack of respect for you, your dog does not respect you and so will not obey you, you need to assert yourself as his leader to gain respect from him. Training needs to start like he is a new puppy again, go back to basics with the recall training and obedience, make yourself the best thing in your dogs life, make your dog think you are worthy of coming back too whenever called, that you are more fun and more interesting than anything else around, be that dogs, people, birds, whatever. Can't he be on a long line when out on walks to at least give him some freedom and to make his walks longer so he is more manageable? Have you thought about whistle training? I know of a great tip, get your dog in front of you, make him focus on you, blow the whistle and give a treat, keep doing that until he realises that the whistle means he will get a treat and increase the distance between you and him and when you blow the whistle he should come, then you can start blowing the whistle at random times around the house and garden and he should come running to you at every whistle, then you can start to take him out the house and increase the distractions and he should eventually, with consistency and a positive attitude, come running no matter what. [/quote] The reason that he has not had many walks recently is due to his health, not because i don't want to due to his behavior. I was not looking forward to walking him because when he has not had a walk for a while he forgets his heelwork and wants to pull, and sniff every blade of grass and wee on every tree. I am not going to assert myself as the leader over him, as i do not believe in that stuff. He is a rescue and had a bad start in life, he is a nervous dog, although he does not show it all the time, he gets easily spooked, and is a very sensitive big boy. I am not saying that he is very obedient but he does behave and is obedient, we go to obedience training every week, and agility every other week, but both have been put on hold for the time being due to his health issues. At least 3 times a week we train together at home or the park. I don't see why we should go back to basics when he is obedient apart from his recall. Yes he has lots of other issues, and has had loads more, but we have overcome or trained him out of these problems We do put him on a long line at appropriate times on his longer walks. He is not an excitable hyperactive dog who needs long walks and lots of exercise. he is a laid back boy, who prefers quieter shorter walks, were he can just potter about and do his own thing That is basic concept of total recall, it is training your dog to come to you by whistle. But there is more involved in it than that, there is lots of proofing you have to do, so you set up different situations so you can proof your recall from people and other dogs.
Re: I feel like giving up Anabelle, he is just being a dog and it isn't the end of the world! If you can find a secure area, try suddenly altering which way you are walking and don't say a word, jink up a path where he cannot see you and he will suddenly look up, see you are not there and rush to find you. Don't ever chase after him as he will only run away faster as it is a game to him. Remember the words I was taught and found very valuable "it is not up to you to see where the dog is, but up to the dog to see where you are" (of course you don't do things like this where there are sheep, cattle or roads!). You will find the more unpredictable your are in changing direction, the less far away he will go from you and the more he will keep his eye on you.
Re: I feel like giving up I do what Stacia says too. The dogs like trying to find you and it does keep them on their toes and you can really make a fuss of them for finding you. Good fun for all!
Re: I feel like giving up Annabelle,when I was your age,all I ever wanted was a dog.....and I wasn't allowed one You are doing an amazing job with Barley,i could never have coped so young with the challenges you have had.I know he tests you ,and you have so many other demands on you with school work etc but you are making marvelous progress with him even when you have your setbacks . I love reading your posts ,I learn a lot from them and I appreciate all the different aspects of dog ownership that you are exploring .....xxxx
