I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

I'll keep it brief*. I went to the pub. Willow was hyper - I think she had a little too much goat poo on her walk. She jumped up at this guy who doesn't approve of my training methods. He immediately started mouthing off about how my methods don't work, and I need to discipline them. Also, I need to not use hand signals with them, but teach them words that everyone knows so everyone can tell my dogs what to do. Er, no. So no. Not to mention that I'd have to teach them everything in not just English, hand signals and whistle like I currently do, but also Catalan, Spanish and French. Maybe some German, Dutch, Flemish and who-knows-what if I take into account the other nationalities that come here. No. No, no, no.

A friend came in with her 8-month old puppy. It's tiny and a bit of a mixa - smaller than a Jack Russell, to give you some context. It has small dog syndrome and hasn't been trained in the slightest. She barks. A lot. She has no social skills. My two were great with her - OK, they pulled towards her at first, but I wouldn't let them say hi until they'd settled down, and then we went and met her one at a time. My two were a bit bemused, to be honest, at this wriggling, squirming, lead-biting, yapping "thing" in front of them.

She was put on a bar stool, and she kept jumping down. I kept my trap shut about the fact that she probably shouldn't be jumping from that height at her age - it's not my place. She kept on barking and squirming and generally being a pain in the butt. Had she been a bigger dog, she'd have been a liability. Her owner didn't know what to do and I wasn't about to offer any advice - it's not my place. She then asked me if she thought I should get an e-collar. I said no, in no uncertain terms. This other guy said, "She just needs some discipline", picked the puppy up by the cheeks, shook her and put her on the chair, then started a diatribe about how her methods (meaning me) would never work, and puffing up his chest that the little dog was now sat, quietly, on the bar stool. I couldn't help myself then. Having been watching a lot of dog body language videos recently to try to read my dogs better, I was able to point out some classic signs of a shut-down dog: the low head carriage, the yawning, the lip-licking, the panting. "She'll be fine in a couple of minutes".

I'm glad that the owner, at this point, asked me what I would do to stop the barking. I was honest and said it could be difficult (I'm certainly no expert, and have my own issues, as you all know) - that barking could be self-rewarding, but if it was through fear (such as fireworks, noises outside etc), she could gradually be desensitised to them and if it was through frustration, she could be taught coping strategies. To her credit, she seemed very interested. I told her it was a slow process, but you end up with a happier dog at the end, rather one that's exhibiting signs of stress. I tried to stay calm, but snapped a bit when this guy kept interrupting me - a pet hate of mine - and telling me to let him finish, when he didn't let me finish once..... ARGH.

The positive is, I said I'd send her some links and videos, so hopefully she'll take some things on board. She's not a bad person; she took on this puppy that was abandoned when she was a mere dot, she just doesn't know how to train her. She's very intelligent (the owner, I mean, although I'm sure the dog is, too!) so I'll provide the evidence and let her make up her own mind about how she wants to go forwards.

But ... that guy! I know this won't be the last time, but ARGH!

 

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

Goodness the frustration!!!

I'd have been hard put not to tell him to mind his own bl**dy business!

Hope the lady enjoys her dog and enjoy their training

 

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

I don't think I could have kept quite as polite as you with the idiot who knows it all! The upside of the evening is that your pups were pretty well behaved and you've pointed some one in the right direction to train their dog. So it's a big well done from me, now have a large drink to de-stress.

 

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

[quote author=MaccieD link=topic=10423.msg153546#msg153546 date=1427916809]
now have a large drink to de-stress.
[/quote]

Don't mind if I do.

 

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

Well done! I struggle in those sort of situations to stay calm and then be able to explain myself properly and well, but sounds like you did brilliantly! Some people just think they know everything. x

 

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

[quote author=Fwhitt246 link=topic=10423.msg153553#msg153553 date=1427917127]
Some people just think they know everything. x
[/quote]

Where as we know we do ..... ;D

 

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

[quote author=MaccieD link=topic=10423.msg153558#msg153558 date=1427917327]
[quote author=Fwhitt246 link=topic=10423.msg153553#msg153553 date=1427917127]
Some people just think they know everything. x
[/quote]

Where as we know we do ..... ;D
[/quote]

Haha, that's the thing that annoys me most, I think! When I say "I'm still inexperienced and don't have all the answers, and don't get it right all the time", he looks at me with that "well, you clearly know nothing" expression.

At the end of the day, though, even if I end up with two reprobates, I'll have two happy reprobates, and I will have enjoyed the journey, too. I'm pretty sure that no-one actually enjoys picking their dog up by the cheeks and shaking it. I certainly hope not, anyway.

 

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

I think you were very restrained Fiona, and hopefully you'll have won over a convert to positive training.

Goodness though - if someone had picked MY puppy up by the cheeks and shaken her, I'd have been livid!!!

 

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

haters are gonna hate no matter what.... :

You showed great restraint Fiona, I would have been very direct if someone handled my dog...or any dog that didn't belong to them in a cruel and unnecessary manner... and I've got a temper that fires off easily at arrogant know it all domineering men....so I probably would have given him an earful and then walked away. Hopefully before needing to be restrained....

 

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

[quote author=sunsetpines link=topic=10423.msg153665#msg153665 date=1427926934]
haters are gonna hate no matter what.... :

You showed great restraint Fiona, I would have been very direct if someone handled my dog...or any dog that didn't belong to them in a cruel and unnecessary manner... and I've got a temper that fires off easily at arrogant know it all domineering men....so I probably would have given him an earful and then walked away. Hopefully before needing to be restrained....
[/quote]

The strange thing is that before this conversation and "demonstration", I'd have said you were mad if you told me he'd do that. He's the gayest guy in the world, and stereotypical along with it. A bit chubby, soft, pink shirts, the lot. I think maybe that's part of the reason I was so appalled, because I was shocked. I assume he had a point to prove, but not sure why it was against me (I only see him for a few minutes here and there every year), or that poor dog!

 

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

Good for you!

I must admit I am not very brave, but this hyper puppy (choccie I am afraid) we sometimes meet at the top of our village was about to be reprimanded with a whack on the nose the other for being "too boisterous", when I positioned myself between the owner and the gorgeous (but excited ) puppy, and after 30second I said - well its too late now she won't know what it was she did wrong. Phew!
He was despairing of her - she is about 9 months.
His black girl died a year or so ago, and he didn't want another black lab, so got a chocolate. "Nobody told [him] that they were a bit bonkers". Meaning the breeder :
Hmmm.

 

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

Well done for turning such a horrible situation into a more positive one for the poor owner. Probably lucky for the 'dog expert' that he didn't try it with either of yours ... Perhaps you wouldn't have been so restrained! Let's hope he's not at the pub too often.

 

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

Oh Fiona,horrible .....poor dog being picked up by his cheeks....how dare he do that to any dog let alone another persons dog ...
I cannot tell you how many people have smirked and rolled their eyes at me .....they love it if Dexter is anything less than 100% reliable because that gives them the opportunity to criticise my efforts and methods.......little do they realise that even whilst they are smirking at me and my dog !he is still am awfully lot better behaved than theirs....oh and then you have the people who don't even have a dog who feel it's ok to tell you how to do it....gets you down sometimes for sure x

 

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

This guy doesn't have a dog. I'm still cross this morning.

Still, one more reason (as if I needed it) to throw everything into training so that when I see him next year, he'll see how my silly methods have worked.

 

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

[quote author=snowbunny link=topic=10423.msg153701#msg153701 date=1427957967]


Still, one more reason (as if I needed it) to throw everything into training so that when I see him next year, he'll see how my silly methods have worked.
[/quote]

And there is nothing more satisfying than that.....there's a guy in our neighbourhood who has a senior working lab and cocker,they both walk perfectly to heel on slip leads on his left side.he has seen me at my worst,Dexter the Dolphin on a lead,embarassiingly trying to make progress down the street and failing miserably.hes watched us persistently practising in my front garden,then moving to the pavement outside,he's stopped and watched and to be fair asked questions and then he's always said 'get him on a choke chain that will soon stop him and he won't like the noise of the chain either ' .........fast forward ( quite : ) a few months and him and his family cycled past me on our tea time lead walk,he stopped and congratulated me on doing such a great job which felt really good ;D

 

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

I stopped engaging with the "your dog is rubbish so that proves your training methods don't work" people. It's just such a ridiculous argument, I can't even give it head room to debate it any more.

Sure, I've got a long way to go in training my dog to even a half decent standard and I might never get there - but I've learned lots and I'm still learning. My dog is happy, confident, friendly, and has no fears and phobias and has a fantastic relationship with me. He hits the training field overflowing with enthusiasm and his face drops when it's time to go home. I can take him anywhere (with a bit of caution for moving objects and things people might throw ;D ;D ;D). A lot of that might be to do with the dog he is, but that means I didn't ruin my raw material at least.

My dog says a lot about my training methods, but people like that bloke in the pub are just not looking hard enough.

 

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

You cannot beat positive reinforcement. My dog loves his training sessions. We train off lead on a local oval and he just wants to work. All thanks to positive methods (coupled with a bottomless pit for a stomach).

 

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

This was the message I sent the dog's owner today:

Hey Laura, lovely to see you yesterday and to properly meet Mariela. I'm sorry I got a bit cross at Robert, but he was being so obtuse and lecturing me on how I should be training my dogs, which is so rude and inappropriate, especially since his "methods" are from the dark ages! It really wound me up the wrong way.

I dug out a couple of things on barking for you to look at. This guy trains dogs for TV and film:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vtn8NhofOw

This woman travels the world giving talks on positive training methods and has a huge collection of videos of her training different things: https://www.youtube.com/user/kikopup/videos

Some information about how to desensitise your dog to fireworks:
http://www.dog-secrets.co.uk/dogs-and-fireworks/

If Mariela is anxious when left alone, you could try a DAP diffuser, which plugs in and emits calming pheromones: http://www.thelabradorsite.com/review-adaptil-dap-diffuser/

And, finally, this article talks about boredom barking and has a couple of links to stimulus barking (ie at noises) and separation anxiety barking:
http://www.montrealdogblog.com/16284/trainer-dog-barks-home/

Also, talking about using dominance to train your dog, here are a few excerpts from highly regarded people or institutions discussing it:
http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/14_12/features/Alpha_20415-1.html

And a more comprehensive article discussing the rise and fall of the dominance model, with links to reputable scientific studies, so you can hopefully understand that what I am trying to achieve is based in science, not in mollycoddling.
http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die

I fully appreciate that I'm new to dog training and I will make plenty of mistakes along the way, but when someone just dismisses something that I have spent a long time researching to find the best methods, based on scientific principles, it puts my back up!

I know you'll appreciate the academia behind these articles

 

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

I'm sure she'll find that info really helpful.

It'd take me many days to get over being lectured by that guy.... I can understand that you're still simmering!

 

Re: I need a drink! Arguing over methods... I should know better....

Good on you Fiona x