I'm writing this in total despair today. I've not long got home from walking Hachi at his favourite park, Fairy Dell, in Coulby Newham. We go there most Sunday's for a walk/run about. But Hachi is very excitable around other dogs, he just gets too excited and wants to play. Over the last few months I've tried various methods I've read on here about trying to distract their attention from the other dog back to you, so we tried treats, ball on a rope and squeaky ball, all favourite things of his which all work off the lead when there are no other dogs around. If there is a dog about he just does this ignoring thing and will act as if I'm trying to give him something he hates. In the past few weeks other dog owners have said 'just let him off and play' which he does, with no growling, barking or biting, it's usually just running, chasing and jumping around, never a problem. Today I took him there and just as we arrived a lady with her Black lab, her daughter and a 6 month old terrier type puppy (which was kept on the lead). Hachi did his usual dance on his back legs trying to get and play, the woman let her lab off which came straight over to us, it sniffed Hachi and the woman discussed Hachi's age and the fact that with him being a puppy he will do what he was doing. I asked her if it was ok to let Hachi off his lead to play, and would her dog ok with it. She said it was fine and Hachi ran like a bullet towards her dog, as this was all happening another couple arrived with their 3 dogs, one was off the lead and went straight to Hachi and the woman's lab. The lab wasn't overly interested in playing and Hachi started to run between all the dogs wanting to play. I shouted to him, he ignored me so I squeaked his ball, and showed him his ball on the rope, he wasn't interested. I ended up almost chasing him to get him back on the lead, still trying with all the goodies I had on me. At this point the woman with the lab started to shout at me...did I not have any treats with me, to which I replied that I did, she then shouted GET CONTROL OF YOUR IDIOT DOG!! or is it you that's the IDIOT? Are you not able to control that dog?? Just at that they all walk off together just as I got Hachi on the lead, told him he was a naughty boy for ignoring me. The woman then stops to talk to another couple heading in my direction, they look towards me and start walking, they give us a really wide berth as if Hachi was going to attack them. I got so upset and didn't know which direction to walk. Hachi was looking at me as if to say what did I do wrong? Was I wrong in letting Hachi off the lead? What would you all suggest I do in future? I want Hachi to be able to play with other dogs as we don't have any friends that he can play with. I feel so sad that I can't control him around other dogs which is not his fault, he just see's it all as fun, and I'm getting stressed out and scared to let him off the lead for a run incase there are other dogs around. Please can you offer me some suggestions? I'm at my wits end! Thanks Shelly
Hello there How old is Hachi now? The first thing is try not to be too upset about other people being rude - that woman was very rude, this makes her look bad, and it's best to try ignore horrible rude people. The second thing is this is quite a common problem. I also have a dog that is super sociable with other dogs, and I used to have really dreadful problems with him. Moving on to you getting control of Hachi around other dogs. You are doing all the right things in having treats and toys for Hachi to get him interested in you around other dogs. But it's likely that you are trying to start doing this in the wrong environment. You are starting training him in an area where he is used to playing, with a lot of very interesting dogs around. It's too big a leap from no dogs to lots of new, exciting dogs. You need to try to find some intermediate steps. A training class or trainer might be able to help you with this. You need to start small - which means one boring dog, at a distance, that has no interest in playing with Hachi. And even then you might need to have him on a long line to stop him getting to the other dog (using a long line can be tricky, and it's best to have a trainer show you how to do it, to keep both you and Hachi safe). The 'keeping your dog close' techniques do work (having treats, toys etc), they really do. And they are a good starting point for lots of people, but when you have a dog that is terrifically mad to get to other dogs, you have got to start a way back from just getting your dog's attention when it already has the opportunity to get to other dogs. Because no matter what you have, you can't compete, and your dog is getting rewarded for ignoring you by having access to the other dogs. So you can't get to step one, really. I started by trying to walk, with my dog on lead, round a perfectly trained gundog (that would ignore my dog no matter what he did), in a field - so far away that if I had been any further away I wouldn't even have been in the same field - until my dog was able to pay attention to me. Then I did the same with a less well trained gundog, then a puppy, then a rescue dog. Rinse and repeat with letting my dog off lead, and so on. It took me all of summer 2014 to do this. At the end of that, I could THEN start working on more typical techniques to keep my dog's attention on me on walks (treats, toys, etc.) but I couldn't start with those. I did get there though! In the end... Best of luck with it.
How unbelievably rude of her Shelly! I'm not surprised you are upset. I am sure one of the other mods or members will come along shortly to help (I am not a training guru ) but my advice would be to really work on a robust recall - in the house, in the garden, in a quiet park, slowly introducing distractions at each stage (Have you seen or read Pippa's "Total Recall"?). In the meantime, I would say consider using a very long training lead in open places. It doesn't work for everyone, but can give you a bit of security as you can step on the end or any part of it to stop your dog and don't actually have to lay your hands on your dog. Tangling can be an issue. so not the perfect solution, but might help a bit. Don't feel down-hearted. I think most of us have felt that same despair. The regret of even having a dog......and that you must be the most useless person out.... It DOES get better. I promise. x
Hachi is a year old and comes to call perfectly as long a there are no dogs about. We have a field opposite and I can take him there and let him off and he comes back every time. Although I had an incident about two months ago where there was a guy with two boxers, he walked away into the distance on the other side of the field to the point we could no longer see them. I let hachi off he had a play and sniff around beside me, we walked along for about two minutes, then Hachi suddenly took off across the field like a bullet, (he runs sooo fast) he had picked up the sent of the other dogs and found them in the other corner of the field which has a hill in the middle. He point blank refused to come back to me, the other dogs were more fun than anything I had with me. I have walked him with an extended lead and he's fine on it, he comes back to me, walks at my side, I've tried walking in the opposite direction if a dogs coming, I get pulled backwards for a few mins till he gets it that he can't play, or I make him sit and get his attention, he gets a treat if he looks at me rather than the other dog. All these things seem to work, I just can't get him back off the lead if there are other dogs.
My dog used to do exactly the same - you can train this, it just takes a lot of work. Techniques using a long line are not the same as using an extendable lead. You would only pick up the line to prevent your dog getting to the other dog. And that is key when you have a dog like this. You HAVE to stop him self rewarding by getting to the other dog, or you have to be in a training set up such that the other dog will ignore him when he gets there. Each time he ignores you, and runs to the other dog he is being rewarded by getting to the other dog. This is actually training him to keep doing what he is doing, because this is the rewarding thing to do You are absolutely right when you say that there is nothing that you can offer him that is worth more than the other dogs. My dog was exactly the same. I could be stood there with a whole roast, warm chicken held under his nose and he'd still leg it to another dog. But that does not mean you can't train this - it is not about it being a competition between the reward you have and the other dog, not if you are training properly (rather than trying to manage, which is what it sounds like you are doing). The process of training changes this, so it's the history of reinforcement for making the right choice that then transfers to your dog giving you an automatic, trained response around the distractions of other dogs. What you can't do though, is keep letting your dog self reward by getting to other dogs, and expect to compete with food or a ball - that's not the way it works with dogs like this. That does work if you have a dog that is not all that fussed by other dogs, and thinks 'yeah, chicken' even if there are other dogs around. But not if you have a dog that thinks 'sod the chicken, I'm off to play' when there are other dogs around. You could try a book "when pigs fly - training success with impossible dogs". I don't mean that your dog is impossible! But this book is all about training dogs that would rather do anything but stick around with you and eat chicken. http://www.amazon.co.uk/When-Pigs-Fly-Training-Impossible/dp/1929242441
Thanks Julie T, I do often think...Jesus Hachi your impossible haha! I had a trainer for a while who thought that she had Hachi sussed, that was until he saw another dog... all she could suggest was to turn and keep walking the other way, that's fine until you walk the other way and there is a dog there too, lol. I'll certainly try this book, and 'Total Recall' looks like I have a lot of reading to do. In the mean time I'll just have to keep him on the lead at all times until I get these read. Thanks everyone, I appreciate your help and advice. Don't know what I'd do without this website!!
You'll get there, don't worry. You can let him off lead, but not really around other dogs unless it's in a training set up. But also don't stress out if you make a mistake and he runs over to another dog - I made loads of mistakes and still got there. It's just you can't have him do it all the time, and it's really better if he doesn't do it at all. I was thinking of you tonight as I walked my dog off lead in an area quite busy with other dogs. Nearly 18 months after the summer of doing nothing but training my dog to stay with me when he saw another dog, I still had to be "on my toes" to stop him running over. And I also thought of you when other dogs came over to us, and were fixated on my wild boar and blackberry treats - yet my dog couldn't give a fig about my treats, all he wanted to do was say "hi" to the other dogs. I have a "when pigs fly" dog too!
Yup, people love to criticise. I think part of the problem is that Labs are perceived a quiet dignified dogs. They are frequently used as Guide Dogs. Recently, when I visited the breeding centre our guide made it very clear that very few made the grade, they are specially bred for the purpose, she described them as "the creme de la creme, de la creme, de la creme. So ordinary people like us with ordinary Labs don't stand a chance. You are doing the right things, it is just that the dog is not cooperating I don't think there is anybody whose has never had to dash after a pup that has become distracted by another dog. My Molly is just as bad. I try to control the situation, with some dogs she will sit nicely as they walk by, others and she turns into a nut job.
Just want to add my support, Shelly. That women (and the other people in the park) was unbelievably rude and stupid. You've been given some great advice. As Julie has said, training Hachi in the context of other dogs (starting with a massive distance and the world's least enticing dog) is the way to go. As she also said, you're aiming for that recall response to be completely automatic, so Hachi doesn't even think when he hears it, he just comes right to you. You will get there! Expect it to take some months, but look on it as a investment in your mental health Money and time well spent. And karma will get that rude lady in the end, I'm sure of it!
I was thinking about you Shelly - your dog sounds so very much like mine used to be, and it was such a massive problem for me at the time - had me in tears often too. Sorry if this is all too long, but it might help..... I don't think you need to completely stop your dog playing with other dogs. What you need to be able to do it is stop your dog dashing over like a mad thing to other dogs, and to come back when you ask him to do so. But that doesn't mean that you can't let him play with other dogs at all. If you deprive him of all doggie company and play, it might make the situation worse. So while I definitely would not allow him to dash over to other dogs when he is off lead and with you (because that's the exact opposite of what you want him to do) and you do need to arrange some scenarios where you can work in a structured way on his recall, there is nothing wrong with telling him 'go play' with other dogs AFTER he has paid some attention to you - not while he is lunging and dragging you over. Just make sure it's in a scenario where it's safe if it takes you a little time to get his attention back on you - the ideal scenario would be playing with an older dog who has a good recall and an owner that will co-operate with you. My single biggest tip is 'click for attention'. Do you use a clicker? If not, it's a really good idea to use one. Click for any attention on you when other dogs are around and he is off lead. So if you give him permission to go play, watch him carefully - any glance in your direction, no matter how brief, click and treat. You very well may find that even though you click, he won't come to you for his treat. In which case, throw the treat towards him (try bounce it off his nose if you can - but make sure it's a soft, tasty treat obviously! Not something that is going give him an unpleasant clonk on the nose!). And have super treats - amazing stuff. Honestly, half a king prawn is not being extravagant. And click and treat EVERY single glance - and do it for months. Months and months. Use his entire breakfast and dinner food if you have to do so. My dog is 2.5 now, and I still click for attention - and my rate of reinforcement is still really, really high. This evening I was walking in an area where, once a week, he is allowed to run with other dogs (on a group walk with a dog walker), so it's a tough area for us. Here are some of my clips from my go-pro, remember this is 18 months on from where you are now - you can't expect your dog to turn away from a dog just a few feet away or recall like my dog (sorry about the sergeant major voice "CHARLIE", when he started to run again after the first recall, that was bad and something I'm working on). I reward for everything, and once he had recalled away from the dog he wanted to run to (in the second clip) for the second time I click and reward for him turning towards me - again and again and again (I should have done this the first time he recalled). When he stays in a sit as another dog walks towards us I reward him with a huge rate of reinforcement for his attention on me instead of the other dog (I could tell he was very tempted to run here). [click for vid] click for attention by Julie T, on Flickr
Hi, I can't really help as I have a runaway too but I just wanted to say I feel your pain!!! If I let Ella off lead anywhere near other dogs, she will always self reward and run over. Once she gets to the other dog, I can call her and she will come back but by that point I feel she has already had her reward of meeting the other dog (and quite possibly jumping all over their human too ). As I don't want her to self reward but also don't want to stop her having off lead time and play time with other dogs, I have come up with two situations where I am comfortable letting her off lead (until she suddenly decides to become the perfect dog with perfect recall and no bad habits☺☺). The first is when I know the dog/human and I will have walked all the way up to them on lead, let Ella off lead but ask her to remain in a stay until I release her to play. The second is in two particular parks that are essentially huge playing fields. So no hidden areas. I feel comfortable letting Ella off lead for a play in the centre of these parks as I can see if a person or dog enters and, when they do, they are still far enough away that I can call Ella back and pop her lead on before they get too close. I find Ella's recall pretty good in these two situations but if someone catches me off guard and gets too close, she's off! I'm very inexperienced with dog training and am pretty useless at coming up with training ideas so I go to a dog club for formal training. We do a similar exercise to Julie's suggestion of "click for attention" (we don't use clickers but a 'bridging word' instead - I believe it's the same concept). We also do lots of exercises with other dogs like crossovers (walk towards each over with dogs at heel, walk past and turn around, next time sit when the dogs pass, then drop etc. and lots of rewards for keeping their attention on you) and weaving (all line up with your dog sitting at heel and the first person weaves in and out with of you with their dog walking at heel. Then the next person has a go etc. This is a good one as you get the opportunity to be the person walking and the 'pole' too). The first few times (well, more than a few times) we did these exercises I was hanging on for dear life as Ella bounced all over the place but she is slowly settling and getting better all of the time. Don't get me wrong, we are still a looooooonnnnngggg way off but any progress feels encouraging ☺ Good luck and keep us updated on your progress. Oh, and don't worry about the grumpy lady, she's clearly never had a Labrador puppy! ☺
Hello Shelly, just wanted to give a bit of support and say that a bad experience like yesterday's shouldnt put you off further training with Hachi. You have received a lot of good advice, and I wanted to ask if you have tried training, in a group setting?
Hello and welcome to the forum pup-pup. I tossed the treats in this situation (I don't always) because I was rewarding him for keeping his attention on me, rather than running back to the other dog, and throwing the treats: a) made it more interesting for him to be with me because he was dashing and trying to catch the treats and b) moved him further away from the distraction (the other dog). I threw the treats away from the distraction because I'd already recalled him twice, and didn't want to have to recall him a third time. Unless you take steps to keep your dog with you after a recall, you'll bust your recall (because you will constantly use your recall to call the dog back from something he wants to get to).
Ah, thanks. He is very much improved, but other dogs will always be a bit of a challenge with him, I think. It's a very small gopro on a mount on the back of my hand - I switch it on and leave it running. It's a bit random what I end up filming though! Often the back of my bag strap!
Well it really shows how you train Charlie. He is very good and its lovely to see how he looks at you.
