Impact of the absence of a reward

Discussion in 'Clicker Training' started by JulieT, Sep 19, 2015.

  1. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Here is Charlie - two behaviours (which were trained separately). Wait while rabbit skin is thrown, and pick up rabbit skin and put it in my hand.

    His reaction when he gets it "wrong" is really quite striking. Including on the second time a definitely sigh! I did nothing but not reward him.

    The second time he got it wrong, I made the exercise easier the third time by reducing the speed that the rabbit skin was put on the ground.

    Interesting, I thought....I also thought I'd go back a couple of steps on steadiness to rabbit skin (of course).

    Video is a bit long - 3 mins - and boring, just as a warning....[click pic for vid]

    [​IMG]IMG_2003 by Julie T, on Flickr
     
  2. Emily

    Emily Registered Users

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    That second look back at you after he gets it wrong... priceless!
     
  3. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    I know! He is so unimpressed! :D:D:D

    There is a danger he disengages when this happens - if I think that might happen, my trainer tells me to ask him for something very easy, like a hand touch, and give him a small reward to stop him disengaging.

    I think just how big an impact no reward has, for a dog that is only trained with rewards of course, is very powerful.
     
  4. Boogie

    Boogie Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    When we train our pups most of the reward is praise, which is quite a different approach. We use food when teaching a new skill then slowly phase it out as they become competent. It has worked well with Gypsy and Twiglet, but Tatze is a true 'show me the money' girl!

    :)
     
  5. snowbunny

    snowbunny Registered Users

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    Grrr, I can't play the video. Will try again later.
     
  6. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    I know some people think that, Mags - the trainers I work with do not think that there is any need to be in a rush to phase out food, and praise is a pretty ineffective way to train. Once a behaviour is established, I don't have a problem phasing out the food reward (although for some things, I never will phase out food).

    Charlie is not being bribed here, the absence of a treat is a very clear signal to him to try again though (it is also the case that because I've moved on a step too fast, he is not quite sure as he is getting one thing wrong and one thing right - which is my mistake).
     
  7. David

    David Registered Users

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    Wonderful. Most impressed!
     
  8. Mylestogo

    Mylestogo Registered Users

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    I did not find that boring at all! That look back "umm didn't you forget something?"... his face says it all. I always learn something watching your videos. Like changing the word command when he does not go on the first cue ("mat" "place"). It's so tempting to repeat the command although it's a no-no. I will probably never post a video of my training with Myles, unless I feel like everyone needs a laugh :rolleyes: And Myles has just told me he will never deliver a fetch item as nicely as Charlie. He insists we tug first.
     
  9. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    I really should have "reset" him at that point, brought him back to me, and then had him go back - but because I didn't, used "place" which just means "go and sit on your placeboard" rather than go back.

    I do sometimes repeat a command if there is nothing else better to do. But only after a period of time when I know he isn't going to figure it out on his own.

    The first time I posted a video, I was cringing - it wasn't great (not that my training is now, of course) and loads of people gave me pointers. It was a bit of a shock to find out how just how many tips I needed, but people were kind, and it helped me.
     
  10. Newbie Lab Owner

    Newbie Lab Owner Registered Users

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    I loved the video, great look from Charlie.
    How do you start training to get a dog to sit on a mat? Dexter loves learning but have no clue on how to start this. He's 15 weeks old, is that too young? He'd be good at chewing the mat!!!!
     
  11. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    I used shaping to get Charlie to sit on his placeboard - this means I only used a clicker and treats, didn't touch him, use any gestures to guide him, or said anything. Once he would sit on the board everytime he saw it, I added a cue "place". Then I developed this into having him go straight back or forward (on the cue "back"), and left and right. It took me a long time! Much longer than it seems to take other people.

    If you wanted to train this way, a dog is never too young - because you use only positive methods, even tiny puppies can learn this way.

    Here is a video showing a dog being "shaped" to target a mat (you could extend this to get the dog to sit on the mat). Just look how joyful the dog is in getting its paws on the mat. Another benefit of training like this. The dogs love it. :)

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZjrJCdJqd4Y

    There is a good book, "the perfect foundation" by Kay Lawrence, which contains the instructions if you are interested.
     
  12. David

    David Registered Users

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    Ah! I understand now. Thank you. Video is fascinating.
     
  13. drjs@5

    drjs@5 Registered Users

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    A great video (both of them!)
     
  14. bbrown

    bbrown Moderator Forum Supporter

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    He really does have the most fabulous expressions xxxx
     

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