Having read Pippa's article on impulse control I've decided I need to do more work on Scott and Scout's impulse control. Believe it or not they actually have very good impulse control when it comes to manners and things. They wait to go through doors, they sit nicely while I speak to people, they don't jump up. Unfortunately when it comes to adrenalin fuelled behaviour, whether its caused by fear or excitement, impulse control goes out of the window. I guess it's all to do with their reactivity There triggers are people. People they don't know = fear. People they know = excitement. There are other minor triggers but they don't have such a massive effect. I use 'look at me' which works very well. If its fear and they don't automatically look at me I cue it and it breaks their focus on the trigger. If its excitement I cue look at me they immediately (I'm quite impressed about that ) stop and sit looking at me. I hold their attention until I can see they are starting to calm, only a few seconds, then release. 'Look at me' is not always practical though.for example my sister has just arrived. S&S got really excited, wagging and circling her. She told them to pick up a rope, they did, went back to circling. They have flopped because we've just walked and trained. Usually it would take longer in scouts case a lot longer. They are a lot better than they used to be though at one time they wouldn't have stopped until she'd left !!! It's not just because they don't see her very often. They do it nearly every afternoon with my auntie !! Scout is worse than Scott you can really see either the fear or excitement in his eyes. I need to try and find something I can put on cue or do with them when look at me isn't suitable. If I use look at me with visitor excitement it will work until I release then they go back to excited wagging. Any ideas would be most welcome. :
Re: Impulse Control I think you can either train a behaviour with a long duration by using food rewards - stay on mat for example, and proof it against the distraction of people, or you can train a cue for a proper settle. A proper settle is more work to train, but more useful in the long run I think.
Re: Impulse Control Jen,this isn't a traditional 'settle' but I'm working on it at the mo,building up to Dex and I going for coffee some hope : https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_2oeOUZ8kls Kikopup also does a 'settle' video...let me have a look I might have it saved x Here you go.... http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=S590rJORPhQ X
Re: Impulse Control Brilliant thank you Angela. ;D I think this one will take fillet stake and king prawns to master. Still nothing ventured and all that. ;D My money is on you and Dex going for coffee long before us.
Re: Impulse Control Neither of those are what I call a "settle" although you could progress from these to a settle for a dog that you had no hope of teaching a settle to at first - those are my equivalent of "stay on your mat". The dogs at the end of second vid do look properly settled but she wouldn't get Charlie to settle like that by feeding food. What she'd get is Charlie in a perfect sphinx like position, stock still to attention, waiting for the next bit of food. And if he didn't get it, he'd switch positions in case that's what I wanted. So he'd be focussed on getting the food. By a settle, I mean that you are trying to get the dog to properly "switch off", food keeps them "switched on" - particularly dogs who are used to working for food. For example, Charlie settles when I'm eating. He does not settle when OH is eating - because he is expecting food. If you look (without your dog seeing you) you will probably already have a cue that means "settle" to your dog. It will be when you ignore them. My best settle cue is checking my emails. As soon as I sit on the end of the sofa, put on my glasses, and open my ipad, Charlie settles. This is because he knows there is nothing in this for him. That's the key to the proper settle.
Re: Impulse Control Sorry - duh - forgot to add the bit to answer Jen's question. So, you ignore your dog. It does work, Charlie settled through a 2 hour lunch today in the pub - and this is ants-in-my-pants hooligan Charlie. I was thrilled. It depends where you are teaching the settle. At home, it was easy, I was just consistent with my ignore cues (and got OH to do the same - the lady who helps me with the cleaning is the best though, she always ignores Charlie - has done since he was 8 weeks old - and she gets an instant settle from him). There is a video somewhere of doing this in the street - I'll find it. It's called "the grown ups are talking". You stand on the lead and ignore the dog. When the dog settles, you proceed. It helps to have other cues, like talking to someone else. In the pub, I'd take Charlie in, and stand on the lead and ignore him. As soon as I got a settle, he'd be rewarded by movement - we'd go for a little sniff outside for example.
Re: Impulse Control I think I'd have the same problem as you Julie with the kikopup settle. In fact I don't think I know. My dogs are finely tuned at working for food. : They do settle when I pick up the iPad and come on the forum. They will try and get my attention a bit but give up and go and lie down. They are also very good at sitting/ lying calmly when we stop to speak to people on our walk. They can be very patient. Assuming they haven't just barked at them like mad. Even if they have reacted once they've stopped they will wait calmly. They don't fidget, sniff or try to wander about. The big question though how do I transfer that to visitors ? :-\. They will do it for me but how do I get them to settle for visitors. Even when they eventually lie down just the visitor moving or a change in their voice and they are back up wagging like mad they wont even be talking to them !!! :-\
Re: Impulse Control Here is the vid for doing this in the street. I think it was Barbara who told me Riley has a perfect settle when she stops to talk to someone in the street - that's his cue for "might as well have 40 winks". http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ealapRYpMQ I rarely get this in the street or a training field yet though. I have worked with another student though, whose dog puddles down into the most perfect settle as soon as she touches his collar (one of the cues you see in the vid). The reason Charlie will settle with visitors in the house is because of all of those months when he was on lead in the house. I'd just stop him getting to people - no exceptions and I would just demand "ignore the dog!" - but when he was really, really calm, I'd let him say hello. Usually at the end of the evening when I had house guests and everyone was going to bed and Charlie was sleepy. After he'd settled properly, he was rewarded by everyone giving him a pat as we all got up to go to bed. To be honest, I don't enforce it with visitors these days - I just explain that if they interact with Charlie at all, he won't leave them alone. If they ignore him, he'll settle eventually. Most visitors don't have the self control to not look at the dog, speak to the dog, offer him a toy, pat him and so on. But if they do ignore him, he will settle.
Re: Impulse Control This is interesting. Hattie does a good settle when I am talking to people in the village, she will sit or lay down without any verbal command, but when I have finished and we move she wants to play with her lead which I am trying to remove from her mouth, I now wonder if she see this as her reward for settling? :-\ Charlie has the most excellent settle when I am ready to serve dinner, he only has to see me get the plates etc. and goes straight to his bed without any verbal command. Hattie however is an opportunist and lays in wait in the doorway just incase : I do put her into her bed but it does take a bribe of food to get her to stay which Charlie does not expect. Jen, with regards to visitors when my door bell rings no matter who it is, the postman, delivery I send Hattie and Charlie to their beds. If it's friends the same thing but I close the door over and after a couple of minutes when there is calm they can come and say 'hello'. It is extremely difficult to get visitors to ignore them though, so if they don't they get the 'full on premium welcome' ;D x
Re: Impulse Control You are both right it's impossible to get visitors to ignore them. The lady who came a few weeks ago to see my mum actually did ignore. The dogs didn't settle but she was a stranger so I was pleased that they were excited rather than nervous. Unfortunately Helen they don't have a bed indoors to send them to. I could use the kikopup vids to train calm on the rug when someone comes but the chances of it working and them staying there even behind a door are very slim. I don't think much of their park in the vid Julie. . When the person approaches all the dogs I think but the alsation moved towards the person sniffing/interested. I don't have that problem due to the fact S&S don't want to go to people. ;D. Unless of course they are the chosen few then I'm not sure I'd stay on my feet standing on the lead. : I think with my dogs I need to take a bit from all the different ideas. Maybe I should start with getting them to lie down by me like the kikopup vids and remain calm. Only giving a treat when they are lying down by me. The trouble is like you said about Charlie Julie as soon as I start giving treats it will take ages for them to switch off from that by which time they will have got distracted by the visitor again. : I can give it a go tomorrow though. Exciting Auntie will be coming. :. Seriously her voice is just naturally shrieky (don't tell her I said that) not in a bad way but enough to be exciting for dogs. :
Re: Impulse Control Also Jen I think you are always working at a disadvantage because you have two dogs of the same age; I'm sure they set each other off regarding excitement, so you have even more work to do than people trying to train ONE dog.
Re: Impulse Control The settle is something I need to work on more, too. Simba is okay at this, but as you say, Jen, it's harder to train out visitors than the dog. :-\ For example, I really don't want Simba coming up to the table when we eat. He rarely does this when we are eating, but once guests come over, different story. Our best friends come for dinner quite often, and even though I tell them to ignore them if he comes up to the table, they will inevitably give him a pat or stroke him while they sit at the table and visit as I finish preparing food. So once the foods actually on the table and they don't want him around, they are pushing him away, which he interprets as a game, etc. I tell him to get in his bed, he usually does, or he will flop on the floor by my chair, which is okay too. The whole "visitors coming to the door" is a whole other scenario we have yet to crack successfully, too.
Re: Impulse Control [quote author=Jen link=topic=8025.msg113138#msg113138 date=1411835877] I don't think much of their park in the vid Julie. . When the person approaches all the dogs I think but the alsation moved towards the person sniffing/interested. [/quote] I think they are learning the park in the video. This is exactly the behaviour one would expect at first. The dog has to learn that there "is nothing in it for me". It takes weeks to get a dog to settle instantly on cue - you have to put in quite a lot of effort. Unless you have been consistent anyway, like it sounds Helen has with Hattie in the street. There is an error in the video, I think. At one point someone walks up and interacts with the dog.
Re: Impulse Control [quote author=JulieT link=topic=8025.msg113159#msg113159 date=1411843402] There is an error in the video, I think. At one point someone walks up and interacts with the dog. [/quote] I spotted that Julie. I wondered if it was a mistake. I'd love to have a touch the collar and settle cue bit like a Vulcan death grip. Apart from it being very useful it looks impressive ;D. I have a feeling it's going to take more than weeks to get settle on cue. :-\ Karen's right they do set each other off but they calm down at different rates. Scott calms down quicker than scout. Once they've both calmed down if one gets worked up again the other usually ignores him which I'm quite surprised about unless it's particularly exciting. As for visitors at the door Lisa I'm going to work on calm when visitors are sitting before I even contemplate calm while visitors come in moving. ;D
Re: Impulse Control [quote author=Jen link=topic=8025.msg113176#msg113176 date=1411849044] I'd love to have a touch the collar and settle cue bit like a Vulcan death grip. Apart from it being very useful it looks impressive ;D. [/quote] Me too,me too! Ok,Julie ( as very often) has identified my training flaw,the food,the food!Thats what I would be using when we move out of the house and garden...and I'd have a coiled sphinx under the table in Cafe Nero ( long way from that at the mo)..... My issue will be that Dexter won't switch off from things around him,even without people giving him attention he's going to be super interested in everything else,a noise,a smell,a movement ...he's never been allowed in any kind of dining establishment for instance .....so I'm going to have to have food to keep him 'down' at least :-\......Anyway my plans for our 'field trip' don't include company for a while ......so I guess I need to work up to a point where he's settling for me like he does under our dining table .......I've got that without food and then progress to 'meet a friend' ;D ;D ;D My English Pub lunch after a lovely country walk next Summer seems a long way off today! ;D
Re: Impulse Control Sometimes the visitor is the problem! My brother does all the right things, ignores them as he walks in, talks calmly, expects feet on the floor etc. But they take ages to calm down when he comes in! He must be giving of some kind of smell/vibe I can't see. No so with other visitors, they can do all the wrong things and the dogs calm down ok, with help from me. I have a book club meeting here sometimes of 6 to 8 people and both dogs are fine with a quick sniff hello then lie at my feet. I am sure this is because the people at the meeting are not in the least interested in dogs. My friend (who has a dog) winds them up so much with her excited, squeaky voice greeting them that Gypsy jumped up and scratched her. Then she blamed the dog and said I should wear long sleeves - Gypsy never does it to me! It must be hard for dogs to get used to such inconsistent signals from humans - at least doggy signals are consistant and make sense. When I am expecting visitors I put Tatze's collar on so that, if she does get excited, I can put her lead on. So now, putting her collar on causes her to keep watching the door!
Re: Impulse Control [quote author=Dexter link=topic=8025.msg113209#msg113209 date=1411880685] My English Pub lunch after a lovely country walk next Summer seems a long way off today! ;D [/quote] Practice is the thing, I think. In lots of different places. He can do it at home, but needs to generalise. Maybe get friends to invite you both to theirs for tea and scones? Gypsy, of course, has to practice sitting under all types of tables and be quiet and relaxed. She started at 8 weeks old. A bit like recall - it needs proofing. (I may have the opposite problem with Gypsy as her first free run is tomorrow at 18 weeks!)
Re: Impulse Control [quote author=Dexter link=topic=8025.msg113209#msg113209 date=1411880685] the food,the food!Thats what I would be using when we move out of the house and garden...and I'd have a coiled sphinx under the table in Cafe Nero ( long way from that at the mo)..... My issue will be that Dexter won't switch off from things around him,even without people giving him attention he's going to be super interested in everything else,a noise,a smell,a movement ...he's never been allowed in any kind of dining establishment for instance .....so I'm going to have to have food to keep him 'down' at least :-\...... [/quote] I think it's fine to do that - but you just have to ditch the food at some point. I used to feed Charlie and to be honest, if it's really difficult, and I just have to manage, I still do. It just gets impossible in the long term though and you need that "switch off". Otherwise I'll have Charlie with his brown nose over the edge of the table, drooling like Niagara Falls, running through his repertoire of tricks to earn a seabiscuit (his cue for "we're shaping" is me sitting down with a pot of food on the table).
Re: Impulse Control I think your right mags it depends on the person. I'm sure dogs know who are doggy people and who aren't and what they think they can get away with. I used to think that with my old lab as well. He was a people dog but he would only make a fuss with certain people. My mum for example is not a doggy person. She likes dogs at a distance. She thinks my dogs are gorgeous just like she thought Murphy was but she doesn't have the need to touch, she doesn't make a big fuss of them or speak to them in an excitable way. My dogs will go to her for a hello sniff then that's it they go and find something more interesting usually me. People who come chattering away to them or worse squeaking don't jump up, (my dogs don't jump up by the way so were they get the idea they will I don't know) flapping their hands about are just asking to play in my dogs eyes and they get the constant full body wag, roaming around them treatment. Why if these people don't want excited dogs around them do they insist on wafting about and not following the ignore rule ? My auntie is a prime example. She comes in shrieking hello at them, find your ropes, run around the couch then when out of excitement scout gets on the couch next to her ( he actually lies down nicely looking at her wagging) she complains saying Jennifer get this dog off. . I'm always tempted not to. ;D Some People ! It would be so much easier without them. : I think as well I'm part of the problem but I'm not sure how to fix myself. : My old lab was very good with people. He would get mega excited with those he knew well but he was very good with new people. I never had any problems taking him to a cafe/pub although we always sat outside. With Murphy though I didn't think about it I just did it. I wasn't as aware when he was young as I am now. I just took him. Of course he didn't have the issues S&S have which makes it harder. If I was you Angela Id choose a quiet time of day, fill up with tasty treats and go and sit outside a cafe. Don't over think it. Ok Dex gets excited by other dogs but I think he's ok with humans isn't he ? Just be ready to move if necessary. Or are there benches near coffee shop type places? Go and sit on a bench, tasty treats and watch the world pass by then try the cafe. Don't think in advance about the worse that could happen just do it. By the way I would totally be imagining all the worse things that could happen and be sat there tense ready to move quick but common sense and everything we've ever read would tell us that's wrong and we are giving signals to the dog. Unfortunately it's easy to say don't worry relax and a lot harder to do. :
