So I blame all of you on here with adorable little fluff nuggets, lol! Actually this is something I started investigating a few months after I brought home my own lovely yellow dude. Adopting Teller renewed my love of dogs and instilled a deep admiration and adoration of gun dog breeds. First let me say that this isn't something I am planning on doing in the immediate future, but rather within the next couple of years. I know there are some great resources on here and on the site concerning choosing a pup and breeder but I wanted to ask those with more experience in the matter for advice. The reason I am looking at breeders now is because certain breeders (particularly smaller or prestigious kennels) often have waiting lists of a year, so it's good to get ahead and narrow down what you're looking for (in my opinion). I'm not completely new to this... I did the research when my ex wanted a puppy this past summer and we decided a Pointer would best fit his lifestyle and requirements. He wanted a large dog, slightly less popular than the retrievers (for health reasons especially), from good hunting stock, similar in temperament to Teller, was good with kids, and who didn't shed like a lab. We came across a small-time breeder who had an out-of-season litter out of the 2015 NFC Pointer and his personal hunting dog and made the 5-hr drive down south to look at the kennels and pups. I made sure all the health clearances were done, although Pointers don't tend to have as many potential issues as labs. We were impressed and went home with the only liver/white ticked male in the litter. Here's the little wriggly worm at 8.5 weeks coming home with us. Well, in helping to raise Rigby (named for the British firearms manufacturer) I can tell you that I do not want a Pointer! I love Rigs (or as we call him, Pig, for the grunting/snorting sounds he made as a baby) but he is definitely not as outgoing or confident as Teller. I realize this may change as he grows older and we were sure to socialize him extensively in large crowds, around loud noises, kids, adults, vaccinated older dogs, etc. but he just doesn't have a comparable temperament to Teller or other retrievers. I'm pretty much set on another lab because why fix it if it's not broken, lol? I definitely want another yellow boy, especially a fox red or dark yellow. I researched the MANY different types of labs over here in the states: Pointing (lol), field-bred 'American,' bench-bred 'English,' and UK working-lines 'British' and have ruled out the show and field lines because I don't believe either would fit my lifestyle. I want a hunting companion (unfortunately all but a few of the show-lines here DO NOT hunt) but I don't want a dog who cannot turn off as many of the dogs on the FT circuit, which leaves the pointing/British lines. There are several great producers of these 'British' dogs, who regularly produce beautiful dark yellows and fox reds (in addition to lighter yellows and blacks). Likewise there are great kennels producing 'pointing' labs under similar circumstances. I have a few kennels in mind right now and one, Orvis-endorsed, well-regarded breeder says they do all of their health checks however I can't find the dogs listed on the OFA site. Is this a red flag? Secondly, I found a small-time breeder who has had 2 litters out of their dogs in the past 2 years. They own a beautiful fox red male and female and keep in touch with most of their past-buyers. They DO all the clearances and have links to each animal's page on the OFA/CERF site. The parents are working on hunt test titles through the American Pointing Lab Association and several of their puppies are already out on the circuit in qualifiers. The pups are much more affordable too. I will say that I know not to hunt for a bargain pup and that you get what you pay for. I also agree that a breeder should charge more for pups out of a proven sire and dam but as long as the parents hunt, are in keeping with the breed standard, and have the health and temperament, I don't see anything wrong with getting a cheaper pup. I also noticed that certain larger kennels have breeding schedules and sometimes have more than one litter at a time. I've always been told this is a major red flag, but if the health clearances are done and the kennel is just large (say located on a shooting preserve), is it always a bad indicator? I'd welcome any feedback or advice as everyone on here seems so kind and helpful.
I'm a newbie to Labs (looking for own currently) but found your assessment of pointers vs. Labs very interesting and love the photo of Rigby. I have a real soft spot for pointers - especially GSP - but as a lazy non-hunting type, I know they are not for me. So no advice from me, but I'll look forward to learning more about breeder searches from others' answers!
My experience of looking for a puppy comes just from the UK, so I'm sorry I can't answer your question about the OFA site. However, as far as having more than one litter at a time, I think you have to use your judgement there a little. With a kennel with a number of bitches, it's possible that two will come into season at the same time, so as long as the breeder has enough time to give to both sets of puppies, I don't see it as being a major problem. You should probably look at how often each bitch is bred to get a feel as to whether it's being done ethically. The puppy I'm picking up in a couple of weeks is from a breeder where that exact thing happened; two bitches in season at the same time, and she bred from them both. Both sets of puppies were born and being raised in the house, and I was more than happy that there was nothing untoward there.
Actually I thought with more that one entire bitch in a household, they are more likely to come into season quite close together? Just a thought....
LOL, I said this on the other forum and someone told me I had my species and my condition mixed up. Have no idea if it's true or not.
@Teller's mom I believe posting of OFA results is voluntary but I'm sure if you email them you could ask. I mean ask the breeder and OFA. Maybe the breeder did Pennhip instead of OFA? For myself a lot of the cautions you read about are just that, cautions. They might mean a need to inquire further. My boy's breeder has a lot of dogs, she breeds for the pet trade. She also does more heath testing than many, offered the best health guarantee I found, shows in conformation, hunts her dogs, tried some agility, is a member of her local Lab board and has conducted classes for conformation judges on grading. You mentionned weight and more moderate dogs and she was the only breeder I could find with dogs showing (Oban's sire did not have at the time nor did he ever get his championship but he did have some impressive scores) dogs close to the weight standard and not miles above it. Since you have looked at the standard you now know the weight is peculiar and only one other retriever breed, Flatcoats, in the U.S. or Canada, have the same wonky description which is called "working condition." Weight you see in the standard is working condition weight. However as far as I can tell what "working condition" is is not defined, not measured and I don't know of anyone who has ever had their dog weighed by judges or stewards or whoever before a show to see if they are too heavy. Or too light I guess but it seems unlikely a dog successful in conformation would be too light.
I've met GSPs, Weims, Vizslas (and of course Rigs) and they are all sweet dogs but don't seem to be as friendly towards strangers as labs. I'll give an example... if we go somewhere people always want to pet our two handsome boys and sometimes they are drawn to Rigby because he's a puppy and has a beautiful coat but he just sort of sniffs them and doesn't take much interest. He's not aggressive or aloof necessarily but he doesn't get excited to make new friends, lol. Teller on the other hand LOVES everybody. If someone comes over to see him, he sort of leans against them absorbing attention, giving kisses, and showing off little tricks (like shaking paw or 'giving 10'). The best way to look at it is that if someone was standing there, Teller couldn't resist saying hello whereas Rigby would probably just continue sniffing around or doing whatever he had been doing. As for GSPs, I don't think they make those lazy lol. That was why we didn't get a GSP. We had spoken to several breeders and they are CRAZY lol. It makes sense because they are expected to run all day upland but for a home environment it's not the most ideal. Some of them are also notorious cat chasers and that didn't work for us either. Rigby isn't the LEAST interested in the cats lol. Well, except the time he almost stuck his nose up one of their butts.
Ella's breeder said that she finds this often happens. She's expecting two litters in the next couple of weeks for this reason (first puppies since Ella was born - not Ella's mum though as she was retired after Ella was born).
@Snowshoe - Thanks, I can email and ask about their screenings. As far as moderation goes... the UK (and perhaps Canada) are WAY ahead of the US. I stumbled upon a breeder last night and they breed for "huge bone"... Like I said the show and field lines don't really intersect. There are some breeders who do have show-lines who've achieved hunt test titles. Obviously an MH title is no small feat and I commend them for doing so much with their dogs but they are at the heavier end of moderate and are a little too overdone for me. Aside from that, the $3000 price tag is sort of out of my budget, lol. I will post pics of some of the pups that came out of the last litter of 'pointing' labs from the small-time breeder. What do you think?
If you want a lab that loves everybody, you should definitely chat to the breeder about the temperament of their dogs. Quinn is pretty indifferent to humans...never been a jumper or licker, pretty much ignores humans when out and about, unless she's in the mood and will wag her tail. She will move her head away from being pet, especially if there is a ball or treat in the mix! On the other hand, she has been super easy to train as we never had some of the common problems like jumping on people but she is definitely outside the norm! Our trainer calls her "driven"...
Yes, that kind of confirms what I've heard about GSPs. I just like to admire them from afar since - as I said - I'm very aware they are too much dog for me. Teller sounds a lot like my pup (in my avatar) was with strangers. He didn't want to go home with anyone but me, but boy oh boy, did he know how to work a crowd. I'm rather fascinated by the pics you posted, especially that yellow Lab (I guess?) in the first three pics. Looks more like a Great Pyrenees or Maremma cross! I love the mastiff pups, but that doesn't precisely look like a Lab anymore. But high cuddle factor...very high cuddle factor!
Lol, Rigby is bad about jumping and Teller was a nightmare when younger. He has his occasional bouts of jumping on strangers but for the most part it's limited to when they hold their hands up (like they have food in them), when he is wild because he has to poop (this is strange, does anybody else's lab get crazed when they have to poo?), or when they rile him up. I will talk to the breeder about temperament. I wouldn't be disappointed with a pup who wasn't eager to greet and lick every SINGLE person. But I do like the friendliness of my boy and would want a similar pup.
That is an 'English' lab. He has a very nice coat but that those fur-covered rolls aren't just fur lol. That's what a lot of the breeders around here strive for. The cuddle factor is very high! I wouldn't say no to a snuggle with him (he looks like a polar bear lol). But that's in no way healthy for a breed prone to joint problems. In his information they say he's 22" at the withers and 120-lbs. So the same weight as a rottie but 4" shorter.
He does look like a polar bear! Wow, that is one massive dog. I would also worry about his poor joints (and everything else if they are breeding for size) but he does look like a Class A cuddle bug. Sounds like it will be even more challenging for you to find a good breeder than for me over here in Germany - you have so many different "kinds" of Lab!
We have waaaaay too many types of labs haha. The more I think on it, the more I want to go with the breeder of the bottom two pups. They are handsome and both parents have nice coats/tails. The dam is a little houndy looking, but the sire has a nice head. I am not going to use the dogs for conformation so as long as they reasonably fall within the standard for looks, have a proper coat, good hunting ability, healthiness, and great temperaments, I will be happy. Honestly I'd love to get my hands on one of the beautiful UK dogs but that would be a huge hassle and definitely not budget-friendly. Speaking of cost, what does everybody believe is excessively expensive? I know that breeders charge more for pups out of titled dogs both in the field and ring (as they should) and that the health tests, vet care, and necessities aren't cheap... but at what point would it just be 'too' much?
The last photo you posted looks very similar to my girl, Harley. I love reds and love their faces, I find them very expressive. I didn't pay a lot for Harley as the breeder we got her from usually breeds for working homes and the police force. The litter we got Harley from wasn't planned and they wanted the last 2 in the litter to go to active homes.
Is that your girl in your avatar? I'd love to see a larger pic but she looks gorgeous. Yes, I love the rich color and think a red would pair nicely with my medium yellow boy! Reds do look dapper, though and a lot have the nifty 'chinchilla' effect like Teller. I figured a red would be a little less common around here as well. Yeah, these breeders have two hunting dogs that they've successfully bred from twice and are very reasonable with their prices. According to their past buyers the pups have very calm temperaments and great noses! I found another breeder who charged $600 for yellows and $1200 for fox reds. Yeah, walked away from that one... Personally I have no problem paying $1500 or under for a pup and I can understand why people would pay $2500 for one out of an NFC pairing. I can also understand people who pay crazy amounts for pups out of a Westminster or Crufts BIS winner. But some breeders charge $3000+ for a puppy out of field-lines, which I think is steep. You could buy a started or finished dog with the amount some of these breeders are asking. I completely get paying that much for a puppy with a pedigree mostly consisting of NFCs if you are going to participate in FTs. However, most people are just looking for a good hunting dog and maybe to do some hunt tests. The breeders charging $3000 are doing so for all litters (most adjust price based on the parents used) and I didn't see anything particularly special about the pedigree. Even 'pet' breeders, who just breed labs for temperament and nothing else really charge $2000 or more per pup.
Studies done in women's dorms show young women in close proximity generally all come into season - I mean ovulate! - at the same time. Due to pheromones. No reason I can see why it shouldn't be the same in dogs.
This is all very sad if those are the only choices available to you in the US. If so, the breed has diverged completely, and no doubt irreversibly.
