Hi everyone, I have received our Mega Plan from our Trainer and would appreciate your thoughts please. Trainer now has a clear picture of how to move forward having seen Charlie in three different types of location which is going to take some hard and focus emotionally tough work. Charlie needs to be motivated to stay with us. "Your tools are our attention and food as these are his basic essential needs". The plan is to link to the absolute degree a TASK with getting those basic needs met" "This is far more demanding and extreme than anything you have done before, It will mean that to have any interation with you, he needs to fulfil that TASK, which I suggest would be to bring you a retrieving dummy. It means to earn any food, he needs to bring you the dummy. Basically, nothing will happen unless that dummy is involved. To set this up, you'll need for him to be in a quiet room away from you. You'll work him in their on bringing you the dummy. For the first period (1 month?) he won't go out except into the garden to 'work' on the dummy… Short intense sessions". "Once that's established his 'walks' will be to one enclosed space to do retrieving the dummy 'work' and nothing else". She said in other words we are focussing down on one 'obession' which is how many real working dogs live their lives. Then more normal walks can be carefully introduced but always the the dummy focus. PS "A thrown ball which he instantly chases is not helpful, as it just triggers his chase instinct and we know he gets bored and drops/or won't return it…so on that long path you described, maybe let him have the ball just once and then take it away or, better still let him see you leave the ball at the start of the path and send him back for it (holding the line if needed)". "It's not an easy option but he is not an easy dog!" All input gratefully received. Thank you xx
Re: 'Mega Plan' from our Trainer - Advice PLEASE I think using a dummy is good, but I also think balls can be good. Harley is obsessed with her ball, but rarely wants a treat when she brings it back recently ??? Personally I wouldn't not walk him or not let him outside for a month. I would do a few short bursts of retrieving in the house, move out to the garden then on walks, but not over such a long period. How is Charlie doing on his walks at the minute?
Re: 'Mega Plan' from our Trainer - Advice PLEASE Hmm...my immediate thoughts are that he will be bouncing off the walls. Not sure I am on her wavelength. Sounds like a backwards step. I think you need some more expert forum advice....
Re: 'Mega Plan' from our Trainer - Advice PLEASE Helen, I don't know. I honestly don't. I can see what the plan might be "getting at" and maybe it is an ambitious and dramatic plan that is really worth a try. Or maybe it's nuts. The only thing I can say is that I'd need to have 100% confidence in the trainer to go along with a plan like that...and I'm not sure you have that at all.
Re: 'Mega Plan' from our Trainer - Advice PLEASE [quote author=JulieT link=topic=5756.msg73569#msg73569 date=1399223850] Helen, I don't know. I honestly don't. I can see what the plan might be "getting at" and maybe it is an ambitious and dramatic plan that is really worth a try. Or maybe it's nuts. The only thing I can say is that I'd need to have 100% confidence in the trainer to go along with a plan like that...and I'm not sure you have that at all. [/quote] Sorry Julie I should have explained, we are not going back to this 'trainer' because the distance is too much and we need to be here for Joseph for his GCSE's but I wanted to see what this mega plan consisted of to see if we could take any nuggets from it. Also we don't have enough confidence in her either, she wanted to see us 2-3 times per week at £40 per session
Re: 'Mega Plan' from our Trainer - Advice PLEASE I might be being very dim, but I cant for the life of me see why a ball is bad but a dummy isnt ? I also agree with Jacqui , it seems a little extreme to deprive Charlie of walks etc . for a month , I would have thought that if you were to do this , once he gets out , eureka moment and off he goes , sorry i`m not being very helpful x
Re: 'Mega Plan' from our Trainer - Advice PLEASE Well, the plan at the heart of it seems to be to build up the dummy so it's very, very, special (she says Charlie is bored of the ball - it could be the other way round if he were bored of the dummy) and to deprive him of everything unless he is focused on his handler, and successfully operating under orders. His universe becomes doing something to earn something. I think I can see the logic in it - but I have no idea whether it's a crazy thing to do, or a brave thing to do.
Re: 'Mega Plan' from our Trainer - Advice PLEASE But Helen took this same approach already did she not - with the "hand feeding" This feels kind of similar. I really don't know enough, but I guess this is the way that Heidrun walks her dogs by constantly working them on a walk, and I suppose this is the aim at the end of the day?
Re: 'Mega Plan' from our Trainer - Advice PLEASE It does rather seem like a step backwards and I don't see exchanging the ball for a dummy will make any difference to Charlie as he will retrieve both but the ball is favoured. He had become bored of only the blind retrieves so we are not doing any retrieving for 2 weeks. We have worked hard to build up the ball desire so that it is special, which eventually works on and off, he does have to work for food. I don't understand why she would expect us to go back to enclosed areas when she previously said the problem was we had only used enclosed areas and not trused him : I also firmly believe that nothing is special enough to Charlie, if it was it wouldn't have taken so long to get there ish. I don't think David and I have the strength to go back to basics again after 2 1/2 years.
Re: 'Mega Plan' from our Trainer - Advice PLEASE I think you have made so much positive progress, you need someone to help you work on that and progress rather than go back to basics - I assume that IS possible - logic would seem so to me......
Re: 'Mega Plan' from our Trainer - Advice PLEASE [quote author=drjs@5 link=topic=5756.msg73597#msg73597 date=1399225890] But Helen took this same approach already did she not - with the "hand feeding" This feels kind of similar. I really don't know enough, but I guess this is the way that Heidrun walks her dogs by constantly working them on a walk, and I suppose this is the aim at the end of the day? [/quote] Your absolutely right Jac we do still hand feed for work when I am not trying to actually fit a life in : I really can't and don't want to walk my dogs like Heidrun and I know Heidrun disagrees , but our lifestyle is different to hers and Hattie is a totally different dog so this just wouldn't work for us. xx
Re: 'Mega Plan' from our Trainer - Advice PLEASE [quote author=drjs@5 link=topic=5756.msg73604#msg73604 date=1399226775] I think you have made so much positive progress, you need someone to help you work on that and progress rather than go back to basics - I assume that IS possible - logic would seem so to me...... [/quote] Thanks Jac, not sure about going to any more trainers as we have not had good experiences and it has cost a lot of money . Another trainer will have yet another way of "helping" Charlie and so it goes on, so I think we will just plod on as we are and hope for a good outcome eventually with "Mission nearly Impossible" x
Re: 'Mega Plan' from our Trainer - Advice PLEASE Helen , I agree with Jacqui , you have made progress , you may not see it yourselves but we all can , I think you would be taking a big risk to compromise that progress along with the fact that you would say you and David would find it too much to cope with x
Re: 'Mega Plan' from our Trainer - Advice PLEASE I couldn't do it either, Helen I risk-manage. That's how I deal with dodgy recall. Not ideal, but my compromise Loads of others to chip in here......
Re: 'Mega Plan' from our Trainer - Advice PLEASE [quote author=JulieT link=topic=5756.msg73591#msg73591 date=1399225514] I think I can see the logic in it - but I have no idea whether it's a crazy thing to do, or a brave thing to do. [/quote] I can see the logic too but it's a big commitment possibly even bigger than Helens already made and life would totally revolve around Charlie as the process was followed. The thing that worries me is if the plan needs tweaking as it goes on.....eg the dummy isn't quite working for some reason there won't be any help on hand as the trainer isn't involved any longer (not that she should be). At various times we've had discussions about putting your dog away if he won't retrieve or only exercising your dog 'under orders'. This sounds like that to me and my personal opinion is it would work eventually but it's hard to do. I know I would struggle to do this with my other commitments(family and job) and I can understand how it would look daunting. I appreciate the point about not encouraging chasing but to be honest if you can get him to chase a ball instead of a squirrel I would take that any day! We did an exercise the other day which was the beginning of a recall from a moving object and it involved throwing a high value toy to chase as reward for coming away from chasing a low value one.....then as with all these thing you move up through the proofing levels. I guess the other school of thought is that by absolutely preventing chasing and offering an alternate activity(retrieving) you break the pattern of behaviour and in essence the dog 'forgets' about chasing and focuses on its 'job'. I don't know which I'd choose.....I'm not really being much help but you have my utmost respect and support Helen! (Not that it's much use to you : )
Re: 'Mega Plan' from our Trainer - Advice PLEASE Hmmm, pondered this for a bit. I think this trainer is worried that Charlie may suffer from instinctive drift with the ball. In other words, he has a learned/trained behaviour (chase the moving ball) and this is close enough to his innate behaviour (chase pheasants) that rewarding the chasing the ball behaviour may reinforce his innate behaviour. So she is using the stationary dummy instead so that you don't reward chasing and risk instinctive drift, you reward retrieving. I understand the logic of this. However, correct me if I am wrong Helen, but Charlie does not exhibit a lot of interest in food or your attention as rewards? If so, then he is very like Tarka who would simply have not eaten for days on end if I had tried to make her work for food or attention in the house. Her reward for a retrieve has always been another retrieve. Initially with Tarka and her hunt obsession I would work her constantly on a walk - it wasn't really a walk, just a long retrieving exercise - and this worked to tweak her instincts from hunting for herself to hunting for me because I could reward her with another hunt/retrieve an object much faster and more frequently than she could find something to hunt for herself without me being involved if that makes sense. But I had an obsessive retriever as well as hunter so that helped enormously. And I can almost get my head around not letting him do anything else for a month except bring you the dummy. When Tarka was injured and on strict rest x 3 months I used this time in the house and on lead to train her to quarter like a spaniel and to vastly improve her stop whistle and heel work. And that restriction from any free running focused her tremendously. But what I can't really get my head round is not really having a reward for Charlie that he values. He's a smart dog and will very quickly get the idea that if he goes and gets his dummy you will feed him and that food happens as a result of bringing the dummy. So in the house he will bring you the dummy. But as I don't think Charlie really VALUES the reward of feeding in the same way he loves to hunt and chase, I don't know if this will work for you to extinguish hunting behaviour outside (it is very difficult to extinguish an instinctive behaviour in a dog) and replace it with retrieving behaviour. I don't know if it will help you or not, I really don't, and I have never seen Charlie or his hunting obsession but merely comment from having dealt with an absconding hunter myself. You have made progress with this lad, and masses of it, but will this program help him? I honestly don't know. But I wish you all the best and commend you for the huge effort you have put in to this dog over the last 2 1/2 years.
Re: 'Mega Plan' from our Trainer - Advice PLEASE [quote author=bbrown link=topic=5756.msg73614#msg73614 date=1399227372] I can see the logic too but it's a big commitment possibly even bigger than Helens already made and life would totally revolve around Charlie as the process was followed. The thing that worries me is if the plan needs tweaking as it goes on.....eg the dummy isn't quite working for some reason there won't be any help on hand as the trainer isn't involved any longer (not that she should be). [/quote] Yes, I agree. I do not think the plan is necessarily without any merit (although it might be). I mean, if it had been set out by a trainer that had carefully observed Charlie, had Helen's full confidence, and was going to provide experienced support step by step etc. then it might be easier to accept. Embarking on such a plan without these things in place does not seem sensible.
Re: 'Mega Plan' from our Trainer - Advice PLEASE I don't think I'm going to be able to help at all. I agree with what the others have said. You need a reward for Charlie that he will work for and if he's not food orientated then that won't work. I assume what your plan is suggesting is you treat Charlie more like a working dog than a pet dog. I appreciate the merits of this. I understand why working dogs are trained and exercised like they are but I don't think it's particularly practical in a family situation were the dog is essentially a pet. A reward for a working dog can be just attention from the handler and more training/work but it would be very hard to remove all unnecessary attention to Charlie if not impossible (I'd find it impossible) aswell as confusing for him after all this time being treated as a family pet. (I may have got the wrong end of the stick here) I think you've made fantastic progress recently with Charlie building up his retrieve desire and if he's hooked on a ball I'd stick with a ball. Why start again? I haven't helped with any of that. My honest opinion would be I don't think it's a practical training plan for your circumstances as a family. I would continue building his desire for the ball and maybe try lochans advice on making a walk one big retrieve giving him constant fast retrieves so he's hunting for you and doesn't have time to get distracted and find his own prey. Have you tried two balls so you've always got one to send when he returns with the first. Sorry I can't remember if he returns the ball to your hand. If he does it doesn't matter but if he drops it at your feet you can immediately send him again without stopping to pick up. Just a thought. Speed also makes it more exciting and interesting. I'll shut up now as I don't think I've been of much use. Remember Helen us plodders stick together we will get there.
Re: 'Mega Plan' from our Trainer - Advice PLEASE Hi Lochan, to answer your questions:- Charlie does not really value our attention or food very much, although he is masses better than he was and to do a retrieving walk wouldn't work either as he is not a retrieverholic like Tarka. I don't think in my very, very limited experience that training him for 1 month just do inhouse dummy work wouldn't work and to have a dog pinging off the walls who hadn't walked wouldn't be a picnic either , maybe a gundog person could deal with this but I don't think we are upto it with everything else in life to get on with too, like you have all said, with no on tap trainer to help/advise it would be too difficult. I think treating Charlie like a 'working dog' is probably too late and it's not what either. We have tried endlessly to find that hight value reward that Charlie truly, truly desires but we haven't found it. Of all the dogs in all the world ….. I really don't want to start on some other route of training after the endless work that has gone into his retrieving and I feel that if we can get him to chase a ball at all costs rather than a Pheasant brilliant, continue to work on his recall and stop whistle that's the best we can do and hope for or we just get bogged down in the technicalities which are beyond our understanding and time available. Barbara, Jen and everyone else I thank you for your input and yes you have allhelped as always and I appreciate everyone's input but Charlie is a bit of a unique boy and I'm not sure even the "professionals' really know what to do so clearly we have no blooming chance, but we will keep going and you never know : : xxx
Re: 'Mega Plan' from our Trainer - Advice PLEASE I think that if you followed that plan then Charlie would go bonkers or you would go bonkers or, more likely, you would both go bonkers. I think that if you're going to have a 'walks are work' approach in which Charlie needs to be always under instruction then the work would need to be based around hunting, which is what he loves. Hunting is the high value reward. That is the approach that Heidrun has advocated in the past. I know that you don't want to go down that road, which I understand. [quote author=drjs@5 link=topic=5756.msg73613#msg73613 date=1399227331] I risk-manage. That's how I deal with dodgy recall. Not ideal, but my compromise [/quote] This is what I would do too. On-lead walking with off-lead in safe areas is really not that bad.....
