How would you expect a dog with nervous aggression to behave ? ??? This might seem a strange question for me to ask but after recent events I've been thinking. ??? Pippa has written, possibly a few times, about how working bred labs are often more sensitive than show bred. I'm wondering if I just have very sensitive working bred labs who are also very vocal which is what was suggested last night. I labelled my dogs with nervous aggression after what the gundog trainer said about them at 8 months. She arrived early, the dogs were loose and as she came around the corner of the house barked. Not an unusual reaction for a dog. Instead of waiting for them to calm down, which is what I'd do if I went to somebody's house, she started throwing their leads at them, good aim, and scared them quiet. Later she informed me they were nervy, mother had probably been nervy and if I'm not careful they will bite. Ive had those words in my head for the last two and a half years. :-\ Last night we met a couple who moved near us about 12 months a go. They have a whippet Toby. Lovely calm, quiet dog. Mr whippet thinks my dogs are beautiful and obviously couldn't resist stroking them. Obviously they barked. He ignored it crouched down, kept stroking and talking to them. He stopped, they stopped. After few minutes he did it again. Mrs whippet stroked them and asked if it could just be that they are very vocal as there is no other aggressive signs and their tails wagging like mad. By the time we carried on with our walk Scott was going to mr whippet nudging his hand to be stroked and licking it ! He still woofed every so often. Scout was a bit more wary but he's never been a touchy, feely dog. This morning we met Mr whippet and Toby again. Scott PULLED me to mr whippet to be stroked ! Even scout went to be stroked ! No barking at all and Scott kept going back for more!!!!! I was convinced after last night the next time we saw him they'd automatically start barking. BAT has definitely got them to this point and I will continue to do it. I'm wondering though if I've been doing the wrong thing avoiding situations where people we meet will try and stoke them and the wrong thing stopping, mainly Scott, going to these people to 'ask' to be stroked. I stop him because although he wants to go to these people I know he will probably bark while they stroke and I have that womans words in the back of my mind. :-\ Sorry this has been a bit rambling but I'm now a bit confused on the best way to proceed. ???
Re: Nervous aggression I'm confused Gosh !!! I'd be confused too! You will definitely need more experienced help than mine but how lovely it must have been to see Scott and Scout desperate for some attention from this person they hardly know!
Re: Nervous aggression I'm confused I bet you are soooo proud of both of them.....especially the fact that they are asking to be stroked What you are saying does make sense, but I haven't got nearly enough experience to comment properly x
Re: Nervous aggression I'm confused I have no expertise. BUT I have been around for a few years! It is not uncommon for people to make throw away comments which into the pschye and colour another persons life. Why not get a "clean sheet" opinion from another another trainer. Another opinion may set your mind at rest. Of course it could always be that you have worked darned hard with them and are beginning to see results. Funny how often that happens. Molly comes from a working line. At eight months she is a ball of energy. Seems very amiable and is very solid in that she doesn't seem to react to much (thunderstorms, loud traffic, gunfire etc)
Re: Nervous aggression I'm confused Penny is working line and is definitely more sensitive to things other dogs wouldn't be. I think she too has some nervous aggression but not as bad as your two. Perhaps it was simply the way these people approached the dogs? I know Penny reacts especially badly to people that look at her as they pass, it's obviously very confrontational to make eye contact with a dog, one of the reasons she doesn't like young children is that they tend to stare. From the sounds of it this man approached side on, not make eye contact and at a low level (crouching down) in all my dealings with nervous and aggressive dogs this is how I've been training to always approach these dogs. Edited to add: Certainly the way your trainer sounds like she approached these dogs, her comment about they they would bite could have been correct - she was confrontational and approached them head on and would have exacerbated any fear behaviour. I know I wouldn't take the words of one trainer to heart, especially someone as specialised as a gundog trainer who may or may not have any in depth knowledge of actual canine behaviour. I would be inclined to seek a second opinion from a behaviourist who uses positive reinforcement techniques.
Re: Nervous aggression I'm confused Well, maybe it was just as simple as a lack of socialisation when they were poorly as pups? No more complex than that. and they are a bit barky. Now, you've got them to accept that strangers are ok. Brill! Whatever, onwards and upwards for you and your boys now! Maybe get them out and about into busier places (slowly, of course) and see how is goes?
Re: Nervous aggression I'm confused How ridiculous to walk up to barking, nervous dogs and throw a lead at them to scare them into quiet! I have a dog who had the potential to become a nervous, reactive dog. Patient, positive treatment has helped her to gain confidence. She is now fine with strangers - we are presently in renovation hell, with builders in and out of the house, drills going, and dirt and dust everywhere. Poppy is calm and gracious with the builders - ok, the odd woof and scuttle, but generally speaking she's brilliant. And I put that firmly down to positive reinforcement. Anyone who called themselves a trainer and threw a lead at my dog would get a serious piece of my mind.
Re: Nervous aggression I'm confused Lola got spooked by the moron next door about 6 weeks back (he was leaning over the fence banging to try get my attention) and now she does a panic bark if noisy people walk past the back garden. If that woman came in my garden when Lola was panicked and threw a lead at her I think I would bite her never mind Lola. She should of trusted you to be handle the situation. My brother is very similar and tries to tell Lola off all the time and this just makes her loopy because he doesn't use the commands I do. Even when I tell him what commands to use he just bellows at her and she barks at him cause she is confused as to whether he is playing or telling her off. Every dog has a chance of reacting the wrong way especially when someone goes into their home and starts throwing stuff about. You know your dogs better than her.
Re: Nervous aggression I'm confused Thank you all for your advice, as always it's a real help. [quote author=Karen link=topic=6456.msg85801#msg85801 date=1402083407] How ridiculous to walk up to barking, nervous dogs and throw a lead at them to scare them into quiet! Anyone who called themselves a trainer and threw a lead at my dog would get a serious piece of my mind. [/quote] Normally they would get a piece of my mind as well Karen but this woman was highly recommended and I think classed as an expert. No names mentioned because I think quite a few people on the forum will have heard the name possibly even know her. I just went along with it can't tell you why. :-\. It was stupid of me. [quote author=bbrown link=topic=6456.msg85752#msg85752 date=1402071154] how lovely it must have been to see Scott and Scout desperate for some attention from this person they hardly know! [/quote] [quote author=Naya link=topic=6456.msg85753#msg85753 date=1402071628] I bet you are soooo proud of both of them.....especially the fact that they are asking to be stroked [/quote] DEFINITELY ;D ;D ;D My dogs greeted a person they don't know who was paying them attention the way you'd expect a Labrador to greet. They haven't done that since they were pups. ;D ;D ;D Their behaviour this morning does perhaps help prove a theory Ive been testing. That the people we meet and they bark at regularly are those that they first met and tried to stroke them when they were at the height of their fear between 6 and 12 months. Complete strangers dont hold the same association. More testing is required but so far it's proving true.
Re: Nervous aggression I'm confused I think they are naturally people-friendly dogs who have met some rough and insensitive people (e.g. lead throwing lady plus the early experience they had with vets). They've had to re-learn that there are people who can be trusted and who are enjoyable to be around. You've given them the opportunity to learn that. I think that now they're in a position to get lots of pats from as many calm, dog savvy people as possible to further build up their 'people can be great after all' mental database. Barking can happen for a lot of reasons. I'd look at body posture rather than the barking to work out how they're feeling e.g. fur up = aroused (but not necessarily nervous), standing tall and tail up = aroused and confident, head and body lowered = bit anxious/"I give in"). I wouldn't worry about a label. I think that any 'reactive' behaviour they have displayed has been either learned or an appropriate response to people who should've known better. So, more environment than personality. Over time you've given them the skills to cope even when the environment is not ideal. In any interaction one party is only half the equation. If you ask your dogs, that lead throwing lady was the one with the nervous aggression, biting potential and communication problem.
Re: Nervous aggression I'm confused I understand Jen, it's easy for me to say "I wouldn't put up with that" - but actually there have been plenty of times where I let something go and afterwards wish I hadn't... : Interesting idea about Scott and Scout reacting badly to people they associate with their period of greatest nervousness. I'd be very interested to hear if you come to any firmer conclusions. I bet you are right though! Lovely point Rachael, about the lead-thrower being the one with the nervous aggression problem!!!
Re: Nervous aggression I'm confused Thank you both. She definitely had some sort of problem. ;D We just met the nice doggy couple again. S&S did bark a bit tonight but as I've mentioned our road and evenings are a bit of an issue anyway. Mr whippet actually said if I thought it could be because we were by our drive. We walked down the road with them. S&S didn't even bother with toby. Before we parted they stroked them again and gave them treats. A bit of woofing but nothing much. Very pleased again. ;D [quote author=Oberon link=topic=6456.msg85835#msg85835 date=1402087556] I think that now they're in a position to get lots of pats from as many calm, dog savvy people as possible to further build up their 'people can be great after all' mental database. [/quote] I think this willbe my next move. I'd been thinking perhaps now they have learnt how to calm I should encourage some basic interaction with, as you said Rachael, people who know dogs. It's really nice to finish the day really happy and positive about my dogs ;D ;D
hi guys, Milo is fine with women he is your usual loving labrador but he is so nervous when a man approaches him and i don't know why. i take him out regulary and i live in a city so always busy with people. He is fine with men he knows at home its just men in the street. really worried in case he bites. i think its the way they tend to approach and always lower their hand on his head.
Men are just more scary! And anyway, what do they think they are doing, putting their hands on your dog's head??? Perhaps you can ask people not to touch your dog, as it makes him nervous? The more neutral interactions he has with men the better - that way he learns they are non-threatening. Just try to stay very calm yourself, and give him a small treat for walking nicely past any man.
When Poppy was younger, old people used to send her off into a barking, growling frenzy. I did just what I'd explained to you in my post above - remained calm, praise and treats when she walked nicely past them, never let people pet her unless she was in a calm happy state, etc. she's fine in almost every situation now, but on Saturday we drove from Germany to the UK. It was a long, hot drive, and on the eurotunnel train, the guard said I could let her out of the car and walk her down the carriage. Some children came up to her and wanted to stroke her, but I could feel how tense she was and could hear a slight rumble from her, so I cut short the interaction before she got really upset. I'm just saying - be attuned to your dog, and don't force situations on him. If he finds strange men touching him stressful (and who can blame him??), then avoid those situations for now, as far as possible.
Well Jen I have had 3 "respected" gun dog trainers who were very quick to take a lot of money and spout a load rubbish and as a result I don't trust any ot them so we just got on and trained Charlie ourselves. Amazing progress with S & S and all down to your research and training. I think a lot of it has to do with how people approach a dog and S & S feel at ease with someone who just lets them do what they feel comfortable with no rushing in and expecting all Labradors to behave the same. People don't behave the same so why should dogs. Well done and keep BATing xx
How the humans react is enormously important I think. Reminds me of a time some years ago when I was walking down the street and a black Lab came barrelling out through an open gate, bellowing as if it wanted to rip my head off. I stopped and said 'hello doggie!' in a happy, friendly voice and the dog instantly turned into a wiggly waggly ball of cuddly mush. I think that 'nervous aggression' is an awful and nonsensical term. Dogs may be nervous...and they bark. And humans think that all barking is 'aggression' so they feel compelled to add the aggression label.
