As some of you might remember my two Labradors have had nervous aggression towards strangers since they were young pups. I have been working hard on the problem ever since and they have made a lot of progress. They walk pass strangers relatively close without bothering at all now, strangers can get a lot nearer and if they should get too close and trigger barking it's more woofs than barks and they will stop as soon as told. Before they wouldn't stop until they'd decided. If a stranger tries to touch them though that's a different matter. They revert back to aggressive barking. Although they do calm down quicker now. With visitors to the house who they don't know they bark like most dogs then pace about like they are not sure what to do. Part of them is scared but part wants fuss and attention like a Labrador should. Eventually left to their own devices they choose the Labrador side. My concern is one day they might bite if the stranger doesn't get the message. It could've happened this morning. I don't know why some people think its a good idea to try and stroke a barking dog that obviously doesn't want to be. I think they must think that can fix them and make them like them or something. : I'm considering a behaviourist but I wonder how much difference that would make, if my dogs will ever be happy with strangers touching them they have made so much progress really. Im not sure what to do. Up to this morning I've been happy with their progress. I know pretty much what triggered this behaviour in the first place, the situations that set them off and I have strategies to deal with it that seem to work. I wonder how much more a behaviourist could do ?
Re: Nervous aggression Jen, my dog used to be very nervous with strangers, and she still isn't keen on people bending down and staring into her eyes while trying to pat her head - she finds that deeply unsettling. Well, so would I!!! But she is MUCH better. This morning we had a workman in (the dishwasher packed up at the weekend after we had a party - of course!!). She barked at him at the front gate, which I am perfectly fine with. But then, once I had greeted him and let him in, she was completely calm and went and lay down in her bed. Six months ago she would have been pacing around growling… She will be two years old in - gosh, next week! How time flies. But what I mean is, it seems to me that experience and growing self-confidence, combined with calm but firm direction, often really help with nervous dogs.
Re: Nervous aggression Thank you Karen. Yes my two object to the same thing, strangers patting the top of their head. I think it was just this morning they reverted back to the aggressive type of barking that has bothered me. To be honest I suppose people don't try and stroke them as much as they did as pups. It would be embarrassing, somebody would come over to stroke the gorgeous Labrador puppies and they'd turn in to snarling beasts. They are so much better than they were. The dilemma I'm having is I don't know if it's worth seeing a behaviourist, I don't know how much more then can tell me that I don't know or havent tried, or if I should carry on as I've been doing and as you've said as they gain experience and confidence hopefully things will improve even more. I do warn people that they are very nervous and they will bark perhaps I should be a bit more firm and ask people to please not touch. ???
Re: Nervous aggression Jen, you seem to be doing all the right things to me , but I would definately tell strangers not to stroke them rather than just a gentle warning , this way you have covered yourself 100% .
Re: Nervous aggression Your right kate thank you. From now on when I say 'I'm afraid they will probably bark at you they are very nervous' I will add ' and they don't like being touched so please dont try to stroke them' or something similar. :
Re: Nervous aggression [quote author=Jen link=topic=4725.msg58357#msg58357 date=1393852902] Your right kate thank you. From now on when I say 'I'm afraid they will probably bark at you they are very nervous' I will add ' and they don't like being touched so please dont try to stroke them' or something similar. : [/quote] I went to say hello to a dog at a kennels the other day and was told in no uncertain terms not to touch the dog! Not offended in any way I'd much prefer the warning and I certainly wouldn't want to cause a nervous dog to be stressed so definitely go for it, save you all some stress!
Re: Nervous aggression I`ve taught my six year old grandson Silas to always ask first . Last week in the woods, a lady was there with one dog off lead, one onlead , Silas asked if he could smooth them ( Cornish for stroke !) and the ladt replied yes to the one off lead but a definate no no to the other one onlead , she then said sorry to me , I told her not to be sorry but thanked her for her honesty, if more people would recognise and deal with their dogs faults instead of pretending that they havent got any, it would be a safer place for all , good on you Jen x
Re: Nervous aggression [quote author=kateincornwall link=topic=4725.msg58384#msg58384 date=1393859402] Silas asked if he could smooth them ( Cornish for stroke !) [/quote] That is a beautiful expression! Do you think TartanMouse would lend out Harry so Silas could 'smooth' that coat?? His coat always looks like one I want to put my paws in! Clare
Re: Nervous aggression Thanks Barbara, thanks Kate. Nervous agression is a problem I've never experienced before. My old lab greeted everybody like long lost friends and I mean everybody. This could cause problems but I didn't have to worry about how he'd react. Ive been trying my best to desensitise them and as I've said they have improved a lot. It's a long process though with ups and downs. Thanks to all your advice I think my plan of action, for now anyway, is to carry on as I am but add 'please don't touch my dogs' to my greeting of strangers. : (obviously only if they look like they might try or they'll just think Im odd randomly telling people not to touch my dogs )
Re: Nervous aggression Hi Jen, owner of a nervous dog too here! Cuillin is mostly great with people, but seemed to pick up some fairly significant stranger dog fears as she got past puppyhood, not sure what caused, though she attended a very busy day care centre for a while and started not wanting to go, so I suspect it all started there. Anyhow, I've read around on this, as I know you have, and found a lot of folk (including many behaviourists) recommend Behavioural Adjustment Therapy as a good approach for this kind of thing, so I immersed myself in it, formulated a plan, and ran it past a trainer who is also a behaviourist, so not really a behaviourist consultation as such but they spent time with me with Cuillin and we had a good chat about what I planned to do and they thought basically following the BAT approach is a good one - I think this is what you do isn't it? The main problem is being able to keep the dog within their threshold before they react - for me, its hard in a busy city to manage Cuilli's interactions with other dogs, and for you its not always possible to manage how other folk behave towards your dogs, and it really is a case of four steps forward can be ruined if the dog's threshold is overstepped, so its not easy...in addition, there is that fine line between managing your dog so they don't go over their threshold, and over managing them so you make their fears worse! I spent a while enlisting friendly owners of dogs C didnt know, and just slowly slowly working on her threshold for reactivity , while trying to ensure that all encounters were good ones and she never reached her threshold and reacted - the bit that builds their confidence, but the bit that its hardest to manage as its completely out of your control sometimes! As she grew more confident again, I started having to manage her less, but what I started to do more was show her that I would deal with situations that she found threatening, and that she didnt have to react, as I was the one who would sort things , in a calm but firm way. So I often 'manage' other dogs for her, I guess in the same way as you are managing strangers. we are getting there and its been a slow process but I think that's just the way with these things isnt it...sounds like you are doing similar things, so hopefully we will both get there! I'm not sure whether Cuillin will ever get back to where she was before this all started, there are some breeds of dogs that she still flips out over when she sees them (greyhounds, alsations, and huskies), but she is soooo much better than she was a year ago. So good luck from me, sounds like we are following similar plans....
Re: Nervous aggression Hi Debsie. Thanks for posting that's really helpful and good to know someone in a similar situation. We do seem to be following similar plans. I use BAT whenever it's feasible. Sometimes it's not so I make the best of the situation. Like today a man stopped in a car to say how lovely my dogs were. I explained they were very nervous and barked. They weren't at the time because he was in a car so not a threat until he stuck his hand out and started waving it at them!!! Those situations I can't control and feel like a set back. I have to remember how much they have improved and carry on. Their threshold has definitely improved and people can get a lot nearer to us. It's weird I don't know about you but I know the size of the threshold circle that surrounds us and when people are going so over step it.: It's a fine line we are walking but like you said hopefully we will all get there. Good luck to you too.
