Simba has had a lovely couple of days here. The weather has been absolutely gorgeous, and he's been outside a lot. His next-door neighbour doggie friend, the almost-one-year Zelda (Great Dane/Mastiff X) has been out too, and I have been opening the gate between our yards for them to play together. They have really enjoyed it and both are eagerly waiting at the co joining gate for someone to open it when they are out at the same time. Zelda starts to howl and whine if that doesn't happen soon enough to suit her fancy. But....one problem surfaced earlier this week. Zelda's people leave her food out on the deck for her to eat whenever she wants. Simba quickly got over his apprehension of the ramp leading to the deck and got up there and started eating it. Neighbour lady picked food container up (Simba still eating all the while) and put it out of reach. I had to keep going over there to make sure food was put up as I know Simba will keep on eating until the food is gone and as it is one of those self-feeding type bowls and food keeps coming I'm not sure how all that would end. I was also a little worried about the dogs getting into a fight over it. So I spoke to the woman yesterday and she put Zelda's food in, yippee. Today the pooches were having a lovely time all day playing - I usually shoo Simba in after a couple hours in the morning and then let him out again later once they both have had a bit of a rest. I was busy putting plants in pots and wasn't really paying attention to time, but I should have, as I heard one of her kids crying but wasn't thinking much of it. Apparently Simba bit him. I don't know what happened exactly. This is their youngest child, about 8-9. I can't imagine that Simba just ran up to him and bit him for no reason, I suspect that Gavin (the boy) was trying to take something away from Simba or went to grab one of Zelda's toys that Simba was going for, or something. I found out when about an hour later when hubby came home - apparently neighbour lady told him. I'm going to hav to gather up my courage later and go over there to see if Gavin is okay. Apparently he broke skin but I don't think it's a serious bite. Sigh.. It's my fault - I had been separating the dogs before the kids came home previously as I was worried about the kids and the dogs together. And I am a little apprehensive about Simba and what might happen if the kids tried to snatch something from him. Now this. I confess to being at a bit of a loss about this. He came to us at nearly a year old with no manners, very collar reactive, and hated being handled. He's come a long way since then, and I've done training with him to the point where I can handle him with no problem, and his resource guarding is at a bare minimum. But it's different with strangers - a little more reactive, a little more resource guarding, a little less tolerance for handling. He's a lovely dog in many ways, very affectionate, not aggressive towards people when they come to the house, all wags and cuddles, no barking at strangers (generally - only occasionally if hey approach the door but never when they are at the door or coming in the house). But in the last 6 months or so he has grabbed at the hand of the teacher of the Teick Dog class when she tried to encourage him out of the agility tunnel (first time he was in there and he was a bit freaked) and she grabbed his harness, grabbed at the hand of the kennel owner when she hauled him by the collar out of the dog food bag (left bruising), growled at my friends kid (21 year old, whom he knows well and loves) when he came over to walk him and tried to put his harness on, and grabbed at the hand of another friend when he tried to grab his toy away from him in an attempt to get him to go outside (we had been away for the day and I asked if he could come and let Simba out for a couple hours while we were gone). And now this. I don't know how to train for these situations. He doesn't do it with me. It's tricky. And the fact he bit a child distresses me greatly - I suspect it's more of a "nip" than a bite but still, is that just splitting hairs? I had supper in the midst of writing this post and popped next door to see how Gavin was - she said he is fine but we didn't have time to chat as she was busy with a client. She will call me later. Anyhow...a bit discouraged here.
Hi Lisa, I am so very sorry this has happened. If I were you the first thing I would do is only to allow Zelda into your yard so that you can supervise, there will be no food, toys and no little children possibly teasing Simba. It would be a real shame if Simba and Zelda didn't have their fun. Secondly, I think you have trained Simba's reactivity to a managable point and you have done a great job considering the point you started out with him. Do you think seeking the help of a Behaviourist could be the way to go? it maybe a simple problem to solve and will be worth it in the long run. A third party might just be able to clarify things for you. I really hope Gavin is OK, which I am sure he will be and that you are too. Big hugs to you {{{xxx}}}
Ah, so sorry to hear you are down about this and it's over shadowing all the great things that you've achieved with Simba. It definitely and most certainly is not splitting hairs to distinguish between a nip and a bite. A nip might, possibly, break the skin. A dog bite can kill a child. There is a world of difference - and the whole reason why we concentrate on bite inhibition is because a distressed dog with good bite inhibition will nip and not bite. Given the number of situations now when Simba has done this, it seems like a pretty predictable response from him. He is most likely always going to mouth and nip if people pull at him, grab him or try to take food away from him. I doubt there is much more you can do training wise to solve this - I know you don't have a lot of support in terms of trainers or behaviourists around, but it's possible a professional might be able to come up with a plan..... Perhaps you just need to have stricter rules about who gets to interact with your dog. Kids don't get to play with Simba and adults get to handle him only after they have been briefed and if they seem like they are unable to follow instructions then then don't get to touch him either. Can Zelda come to your place instead of vice versa if the kids are around? Have you seen the material for "dog prevention week"? Have a look, it might cheer you up. It's all about how to be sensible around dogs to avoid getting bitten - eg don't take food away from dogs and so on. I mean, the things that are causing Simba to nip are things that people just shouldn't do around dogs....
It sounds really positive that they have been playing so nicely . I'm glad you are able to let them play together. I think it might be that Simba hasn't had much interaction with other in terms of them taking things from him or getting in his personal space. He is used to you and your family, but not everyone else. I really don't think he's a nasty dog, just a bit wary of some people. He obviously didn't hurt Gavin too much or I am sure you would of heard about it, and mum seems ok about it. I would continue to allow the dogs to play, but when the children are home I would watch very carefully and not leave Simba in a situation where he is out of his depth and could react. I always watch Harley when we have children at our house even though she is so gentle with them, I don't want to risk her reacting if they do something to her. Don't worry too much about it, I'm sure all will be ok. Might be good to set up some proofing with other people and Simba?
So sorry Lisa, how very worrying for you. Try not to get too upset about it; if Simba had wanted to hurt Gavin this would be a very different story. But, of course, you simply cannot have him biting - or even nipping - children. Or anyone really, but especially not children. I think Helen and Julie have it right - let the dogs play in your yard, no unsupervised playing, no unsupervised interaction with children or strangers. That, I think, is the only safe way to go.
I think you've been given the best advice above, so I have nothing to add on that. I just wanted to add my voice to those saying you should try and focus on how far you've come with Simba. So, he may never be a bulletproof dog that you can trust to be pulled around by anyone. But he is so much better than at the start of your journey; he just needs a little more understanding and supervision to ensure people aren't doing the things they shouldn't be doing anyway! Julie's right - his bite inhibition is obviously great, otherwise there would have been some real damage done. He did a good job; you obviously don't want him nipping children at all, but he did show a huge amount of self control nonetheless.
Yes, Simba has come a long way and is a great dog. But - and it is a serious, really big BUT - you have to make sure he isn't alone with any children, Lisa. If he bit a child, even a nip that broke the skin, and that parent took you to court - you could end up in big trouble, and face having to put Simba down. I am not trying to be negative; and I'm sure you are already aware of the problems, which are definitely not of your making, on the contrary you have done wonderful things with Mr. Simba! I just don't want anybody making light of a bite, or nip - especially not with children.
Ah Lisa,I bet your mind has gone to some very dark places in the last 24 hours ....bless you ,I know you will have been shaken up by this.Did you get a call later from your neighbour...I hope Gavin is ok?iwhilst it's not something that should happen I'd have hoped that being a dog owner his Mum is understanding of situations that can arise,she owns a huge dog,I'd like to think she has a reasonable level of dog experience.Supervision is key like the others have said,you've always been aware of Simba's flash points this, situation Just emphasizes the importance of keeping him away from situations that potentially have these flash points and you can do that successfully. I know you will feel rotten and I'm really sorry ,butnitndoesnt mean the dogs can't still,play together,in your yard ,under your control wil be a much better environment xxx
Are you sure he deliberately bit Gavin? I have a 'bite' on my thumb were it was in the wrong place when my dog picked up a ball, he didn't bite me, but his teeth caught my thumb as he went to hold the ball.
I'd like to add my support too. You've had some very good. Advice from 'the girls', no doubt all of it had probably passed through your mind in the long dark hours of a sleepless night. I would add that some 'nips' are, in truth, not the dogs fault but ours. I have hand fed Molly literally thousands of kibble and small treats over the last eighteen months. Occasionally I "feel her teeth", this is not her fault, but my lousy timing. As Julie says, Bite Inhibition is so important. I may have "felt her teeth" but she has not damaged me or drawn blood since she left the awful Crocodog stage. Children, being shorter, their hands can pass by or through a dogs mouth at exactly the wrong time, half a second either way and no one would even notice. Many years ago I read an article which said (in essence) ......the growl is the dog's voice. How else is it going to tell you that it really doesn't like what you are doing. Hope you manage to get it sorted out quickly and amicabably.
What a stress. You've done a simply wonderful job with him, Lisa. But you can't train for every situation. So the answer is supervision, supervision, supervision accompanied by prevention, prevention, prevention. Don't leave it up to neighbours or friends (and especially not children) to decide how to interact with Simba. I agree that doggie play should happen in your yard only, with other people present only on your watch. I wouldn't think badly of Simba here. Not at all. He's only a dog. It's not his fault.
Just wanted to give my support and there's lots of good advice already here. You've done a wonderful job with Simba so try and stay positive
So sorry to hear about this. I can imagine how horrible it must feel for you. Hope the child is ok and it doesn't cause any problem with your neighbours x
I agree with what everyone else has said. You have done a fantastic job with Simba and you can't proof against everything. There will probably always be situations Simba finds stressful and reacts to but thanks to you they have, and hopefully will continue, to decrease. I don't believe Simba would have bitten the child without a reason. Unfortunately that's the trouble with children they don't understand when a dog has had enough or is getting stressed etc. Let's face it a lot of adults don't either. This was not your fault it was an unfortunate incident which could happen to absolutely anyone and I know that you will do your level best to never let happen again.
I like the message of national dog bite prevention week to young kids - "any dog can bite". That's so true - under varying different circumstances, all dogs could bite. I'd trust my dog with any kid, but I wouldn't trust any kid with my dog...
You've had loads of positive and helpful thoughts here Lisa, nothing much I can add except to say I really feel for you, and I hope this doesn't cause a falling out with your neighbour. I know that you will take great care to ensure it can't happen again, so I suppose your main decision will be between planning long term management techniques to make sure no-one can snatch from Simba or grab at him in the future, or whether to attempt a 'cure' to resolve his fear of being grabbed or losing stuff, maybe with the help of a behaviourist.
Thanks so much, all for your positive encouragements, it really helps. You are all saying things which I have concluded as well. I have toyed with the idea of a behaviourist, there isn't one very close here, I don't think, but I'll do some researching to see what I can find. On the whole, though, I tend to agree with you all that things could have been much worse and that even in these situations where Simba has "bitten" it has in 99% of cases been him grabbing on to the person's arm - a good solid clamp down, but without breaking skin. So that does tell me that he has good bite inhibition. And nothing about him speaks "aggressive" dog to me. So that is good. So. We did end up going over to the neighbours later last night, with Simba in tow (on leash), as Monica (the mom) wanted Gavin not to be scared of him. We are not sure exactly what happened, but the picture is a little clearer. Unbeknownst to me, the food was on the deck again and Simba had been chowing down on it during the day (I was wondering why he hadn't seemed hungry at supper, the rotter! ). Gavin and Simba were alone on the deck when it happened. He says he was petting Simba, but denies it was when Simba was eating. It's hard to say, but it am convinced the food was the trigger somehow. As to the bite, he has a little bruising and a long scratch on his arm - looks to me like Simba grabbed his arm and the boy jerked his arm away getting a scratch from a tooth. So, not great but not an escalation from anything that has happened before, I don't think. I certainly will not have him around the kids, though, I can't risk it. And as I said, I lost track of the time or I wouldn't have allowed it yesterday. Monica was very understanding and we agreed that the dogs wouldn't be alone with the kids so we will work together to make sure that doesn't happen. I agree that the best thing will be for the two dogs to play together in my yard, eliminating any concerns about food or kids or toys. Thanks again so much for your support and comments, I really appreciate it.
