I've been wondering if Scott and scouts ability to get very over excited is linked to their nervousness. In other words instead of getting nervous aggression they get nervous excitement. I know over excitement is par for the course with some young labs but I did wonder if the behaviours were linked or had a similar feeling if that makes sense. In my BAT book is a chapter for frustrated greeters. It's very like the training for nervous aggression. I was wondering if I worked on keeping them calm when they greet people (they know I should add) on a lead if that would have some sort of knock on effect with their nervousness training. Anybody any thoughts ? ???
Re: Over excitement/nervousness It's funny you should say that, Jen, as reading your threads I've often wondered if some of the tips would work for over excited Charlie. So I think generally, the answer might be calming techniques might also be helpful for your boys. I'm not sure though about the concept of "nervous excitement" in dogs. I know what it means for humans, but I'm not at all sure that the same drivers exist in dogs. I don't know though. I would guess dogs do nerves, or excitement. I'm not sure they do both at the same time.
Re: Over excitement/nervousness I know what you mean Julie I don't think I'm wording it very well. ??? For example at the vets they were obviously very nervous and afraid of what might happen and barked at the vet. Yet their behaviour towards me and the OH was very like excitement jumping up, wide eyed , wagging, couldn't keep still. I know that was fear but to anybody who didn't know it would look like an excited dog. I guess it's all classed as 'reactivity'. Either a very excited reaction or a nervous, fearful reaction. I'm hoping the frustrated greeting training might have a knock on effect on the fear as it will be so much easier to set up those exercises. Basically every member of my family gets a frustrated greeting with the OH well at the top of the pile. :. If they all do two set ups each I'll easily achieve 20, well on the way to being fixed. The frustrated greeting training is basically the same as the fear training but the functional reward is to move nearer the tigger rather than away. Wait for the dog to notice the trigger, then wait for the dog to disengage from the trigger (if that's not happening cue, I use look at me) then move forward a few feet and repeat. If the dog pulls, lunges towards the trigger you move away about 10 feet and start again. It's the fact it's pretty much the same as for nervous reactivity that I'm hoping it will build on that training as getting somebody I don't know very well to stand about why I move towards them and then away again is a bit tricky.
Re: Over excitement/nervousness It sounds exactly what I do with Charlie - only I get the person to move closer or back, as what Charlie has to do is keep his paws still. What's frustrated greeting?
Re: Over excitement/nervousness Frustrated greeting in the BAT book is what we would call a very excited greeting. Pulling to get to somebody or a dog they want to play with, lunging towards them because so desperate to get to them and maybe jumping up when they get to the person. It has got lots of jargony words in the BAT book. Once you've worked them out it is quite a simple/common sense concept.
Re: Over excitement/nervousness I think I've thought of a better way of explaining what I was trying to get at. : My dogs react and panic quickly so they haven't learnt how to control and calm themselves in stressful situations. I'm wondering if this has had a similar effect on their excitement levels. They find it difficult to control and calm themselves. Therefore I'm hoping if I can teach them to control and calm their excitement it will make learning to control and calm their panic reaction easier. I'm working on the assumption that fight or flight and excitement are adrenaline fuelled and they need help controlling their adrenaline whatever the situation. I hope that makes sense. ??? PS I don't think they are much more excitable than a normal 3 year old lab but they do seem to have difficulty calming down. The frustrated greeting training will definitely be useful when meeting family and their dogs. Thought I'd add that incase you thought my dogs were completely uncontrollable. ;D
Re: Over excitement/nervousness Sounds like an extremely sensible plan, Jen. Give that theory/approach a try - the dogs will let you know if it's working. I have a feeling that it will work as I think you are right that what's behind their behaviour with known people is more like nervous excitement.
Re: Over excitement/nervousness Thanks Rachael. It makes sense to me but I wondered if it actually made sense or if I was clutching at straws and getting things muddled. I'm quite good at that. It would be great if it did help with their nervousness and so much easier to set up than finding strangers and less weird. ;D There are four family members who live across the yard I can accost whenever they come out of their house. I do them enough favours they can stand in the yard for 10 minutes while we walk forwards and backwards. ;D Fingers crossed and anyway if nothing else it should help them control their excitement. :
Re: Over excitement/nervousness I've thought of something else that might suggest a link between their overly excited greeting of people they know and their nervousness of people they don't. Sometimes when we meet people they are unsure of you can see confusion in their behaviour. It's like the natural, friendly Labrador temperament is fighting against the scared little creature inside and they don't know what to do. They bark just to be on the safe side. : For example sometimes Scott will go to a person I'd expect him to bark at, even let them stroke him and then start barking !!!!!! What strange creatures I have. :-\
Re: Over excitement/nervousness I don't know too much about it and I've not heard the term nervous excitement before, but it sound exactly like what Penny is like around other dogs. I've been trying to describe it and work out her thought processes for so long so I can start trying to help her with it. It's like, she wants to greet and play with the other dog, but at the same time she's anxious about it (hackles go up and can defensively bark and lunge) and doesn't really know how to behave appropriately. I've been wondering for a while, since seeing your posts, if I should invest in a BAT book and see if it helps...
Re: Over excitement/nervousness They feel torn or ambivalent at the same time as being highly aroused. We feel like that sometimes, and I don't see why dog wouldn't feel the same too
Re: Over excitement/nervousness Charlie is just straight out "Whey-hey! Let's play! I love you and want to lick your ears!". It's interesting that the techniques to solve it are similar to nervousness - C&T for calm has been a life saver for us. We're far from home and dry, but at least we cope these days.
Re: Over excitement/nervousness Penny sounds very similar to Scott and scout in her behaviour. Their body language is submissive really, tail low and wagging sometimes body low to the ground but they bark like they are being aggressive. They do it with people though. : Have you looked at the website about BAT Lauren? It's www.empoweredanimals.com It has most of what's in the book. If you click on learn more it tells you about the training and how to do the set ups.
Re: Over excitement/nervousness This is intriguing Jen....been thinking about Cuillin today after I read this and bless her despite being really well socialised as a little puppy from 8 weeks onwards ( though her creche experience from thirteen weeks on is not clear) she has real issues about greeting dogs she knows and likes..she is all over them licking their muzzles and fawning and generally being OTT. She actually seems to like being told off by them for being too effusive as well! Same with people, she goes sparko when my friends visit. Brodick on the other hand greets happily but camly in all situations ( he was complimented on his social skills by a trainer when he went along to Cuillins Barky Dog class. Mr Chiilled he was in the face of a lot of reactive dogs and they were all strangely calmer around him...he has really good dog social skills). I've often thought of Cuillin as having impulse control issues, you are right, she gets worked up when she sees dogs and it can go either way, OTT effusive excitement if she knows them, scaredy barking if she doesnt...all adrenalin fuelled tho...hmmm...
Re: Over excitement/nervousness [quote author=Jen link=topic=5380.msg67865#msg67865 date=1397373126] For example sometimes Scott will go to a person I'd expect him to bark at, even let them stroke him and then start barking !!!!!! [/quote] What happens if you do nothing and don't remove the dogs from the situation? With just excitement, it just all wears off- eventually. Charlie will jump on someone for a very long time. But once he has throughly jumped all over them, licked their ears, chewed their hair and (if a lady guest) investigated whether she is wearing an under wired bra so that he can chew the ends (seriously - new lady vets are always alarmed by this, for some reason). He does eventually give up and do something else. What would Scott and Scout do? Say if they met a stranger and couldn't get away for hours?
Re: Over excitement/nervousness That's a good question Julie. With their over excitement they will eventually calm down. I think that has improved as they've got older. However they are on alert all the time. For example if my auntie comes, which she will this afternoon, they get very excited when she comes in like most dogs I know but whereas some dogs may calm down relatively quickly after the initial greeting they will pace up and down in front of her. Usually with whatever she's told them to go and find, like a rope, in their mouths. Not that long ago they would've kept that up until she left. Now they do settle and lie down, scout sometimes gets on the couch next to her much to her horror ;D but if she or anybody moves they are up again. They have always been quite well mannered in their excitement. They have never really jumped up or mugged people off lead they sometimes try and jump up on lead but not badly. If they are exposed long enough to a stranger the same thing sort of applies. They will stop barking. The time it takes to stop has improved a lot and they will usually now stop on command. At one time they only stopped when they were ready. Again they are then on high alert. If the stranger moves in a way that looks like they might come nearer or try and touch them they will probably start barking again. Explaining their behaviour, although it makes them sound a nightmare, actually makes me realise how much they have improved. Charlie's bra fetish is hilarious Julie. ;D ;D It's very interesting Debsie that cuillin is similar with either over excitement or fear reaction when she meets either a dog she knows or one she doesn't. It's just like Scott and Scout with people. Maybe there is something in this idea that nervousness and over excitement are linked. I suppose a situation which causes over excitement could be described as stressful it just manifests differently to fear. In which case teaching the dog to cope and calm itself in stressful situations should work whatever the cause of the stress : If that makes sense.
Re: Over excitement/nervousness [quote author=Jen link=topic=5380.msg67788#msg67788 date=1397319665] Frustrated greeting in the BAT book is what we would call a very excited greeting. Pulling to get to somebody or a dog they want to play with, lunging towards them because so desperate to get to them and maybe jumping up when they get to the person. It has got lots of jargony words in the BAT book. Once you've worked them out it is quite a simple/common sense concept. [/quote] Jen what book are you using?thanks x
Re: Over excitement/nervousness BAT for fear, frustration and aggression by Grisha Stewart . The web site has some info under learn more but it doesn't have frustrated greeters exercises. www.empoweredanimals.com It works! The frustrated greeters exercise works!!!' We've done two setups today. One this morning in the garden with the OH. They always get excited and bouncy and do their best to get to him when he first appears. One this afternoon in the back yard with my cousin and her dog Harry. Again they love Harry and do their best to get to him as quickly as possible. Both times S&S locked their attention on at about the same distance from the decoy. I stopped and waited. After roughly 10 seconds they looked at me, we took a few steps forward then I waited, they looked at me. Both times we got to within about 6 feet before they started to pull. My cousin didn't help having a bag of dog chews in her hand. : When they pulled I turned around, walked back about 10 feet, waited for the look then set off again. We got right up to them both times with no pulling or bouncing or even whinging !!!! Then S&S just automatically sat and waited. Calm as anything !!!!!! I can't believe it ! It's bordering on a miracle ;D ;D ;D
Re: Over excitement/nervousness Thanks Jen,I've also ordered Feisty Fido - the Leash Reactive dog by Patricia B McConnell,I am half way through her The Other End of The Leash at the moment.also ordered Pippa's new book too...of course ;D Thanks for the guidance ,glad to see you having such success x
