Parent hip/elbow scores - are they an indication of predisposition to HD/ED?

I'm finding it really shocking how many of our poor labs are suffering or have suffered from HD/ED. I'd be really interested if any of you know what hip scores the parents of your dog have. I'm wondering whether irresponsible breeding is to blame, or whether there might be something else going on. Is your dog slim, did you let him/her run around and jump a lot when a puppy, what food do you use? Does anyone have any other suspicions or ideas?

 

Re: Parent hip/elbow scores - are they an indication of predisposition to HD/ED?

So the two dogs I know.....

My in-laws dog has ED which was first diagnosed at about 9 months, I don't believe his parents were elbow scored but their hip scores were good. He was bred by a working kennel although he's a very big, heavily built lab. They keep him slim(for his build) and they didn't restrict his exercise much when he was younger. He's been on Skinners all his life.

Riley comes from hip scored but not elbow scored dogs. He's naturally a lighter weight dog, his mum was a family dog that was worked and his dad was a stud dog at a working kennel that also does gundog displays. Because of Monty's issues I was very strict about levels of exercise and we've been fortunate that it hasn't been hard to keep his weight down, he's a slightly picky eater/has a sensitive stomach so if anything we've occasionally had to feed him up. He's not the most robust dog but fairly healthy. We've always fed a reasonable quality kibble.

 

Re: Parent hip/elbow scores - are they an indication of predisposition to HD/ED?

I absolutely agree with you - to the (very, very, sad) extent that I'm wondering whether I'll ever get another labrador. :'(

I know Charlie's parents hip and elbow ratings: Mum - 0:0 elbows, 1:2 hips. Dad - 0:0 elbows, 0:0 hips. I also have an absolute raft of tests for EIC, eyes and a load of other stuff that I don't even know what it is.

This is deliberate - I checked, and checked and checked, what to look for.

I worried about Charlie's weight from the get go. He was never really overweight at all, but I had to watch it like a hawk. I wasn't hugely obsessive about the 5 min rule, but was pretty careful and limited jumping. His hips and elbows are perfect or pretty near perfect.

I still have a dog with a ruptured cruciate at a very young age.

The surgeon said he could have done it on the common running around with other dogs, but it might also be inherited from his ancestors (not necessarily his immediate ancestors, who have no history of problems - I later checked), or is just a fluke but (in his opinion) is absolutely nothing to do with exercise or food that Charlie had as a puppy. I couldn't have done something different and avoided it - or do something different next time.

So, what do I conclude?

Don't know. But I'm thinking carefully about whether I ever want to risk going through this again.

 

Re: Parent hip/elbow scores - are they an indication of predisposition to HD/ED?

jaspers parent both had good hip and elbow scores,jasper as had ed from being around 4/5 month old, his was caused by a trauma,
his diet is good, he is slim,
he had xrays and scans, i was advised by the surgeon not to have the operation , we built his level of fitness up over a period of months, he is now having at least 2 hours a day of exercise, he as had 2 bad days in 6 month.
i still keep in touch with the surgeon ,
no one would be able to tell he as any thing wrong with his elbow, as he show no signs of a limp.

we did the 5 min rule exercise from being a puppy,......he did do his bum tucking running,
no doubt he will get arthritis at a young age

 

Re: Parent hip/elbow scores - are they an indication of predisposition to HD/ED?

The incidence of HD was one of the factors that made me wary about getting a Lab... our two spaniels were aging, and I loved the temperament of a neighbour's lab, but still wasn't sure... was swayed after we lost our eldest dogs because I knew the breeder (she is actually OH's cousin, I would have been very wary of trusting a breeder otherwise!) had met several of her dogs from different generations, and the sire for Brew's litter had a hip score of 0:0, an elbow score of 0:0 and her mother has a hipscore of 3:2 and elbow score of 0:0, plus a whole other raft of clear health tests.

I have been careful exercise wise - Brew herself is much less cautious! She is up for full speed ahead. I allow a certain amount of play between her and Theakston, but not rough play. She is not allowed to jump in or out of the car, no stairs at all for the first three months plus (concocted a temporary ramp down from our back door, so she didn't even have to do those 3 steps, and until she was about four-and-a-half months old she chose to use it every time - it's still there, but she doesn't use it anymore at 5 months) now very limited access to the household stairs. I have purposefully monitored her diet very carefully to keep her on the slender side. Will it be enough?? Who knows.

I still watch her like a hawk. Sometimes, I do wonder. She shows no signs of pain or discomfort, but just occasionally I think I spot something as she slows down from a run with that left back leg. I will continue to watch her v-e-r-y carefully. Her parents are both extremely fit trial dogs. I see so many overweight Labs waddling along on very short walks, and it has occurred to me that maybe breeding them like athletes might make them more prone to problems?? I really don't know. It also occurs to me that the users of this forum are also more likely to be those who are aware of the potential problems, and therefore as a group are more likely to spot them in their dogs and manage the situation actively. There are possibly many others out there whose owners just think they walk or sit funny. As I said, I really don't know.
Clare

 

Re: Parent hip/elbow scores - are they an indication of predisposition to HD/ED?

Such a difficult question to answer - you are really asking is it nature or nurture for these dogs. And, as in most things, I suspect a bit of both. My current two dogs are from parents with 0/0 elbows and single digit hip scores. Lochan's grandparents and great grandparents all had single digit hip scores too. Lochan's litter sister was retained by the breeder (they always keep a "quality control" puppy from each litter) and has 0/0 elbows and 0/0 hips. They are both genetically tested for EIC, CNM, PRA, etc etc. In other words, like Julie with Charlie, I did a vast amount of research into breeders and was extremely picky about where I got a pup from. They are very slim (25kg) fit and active. They have been fed a high quality kibble with an added "joint protection system" from weaning. I completely ignore the 5 minute rule as I have yet to see any concrete evidence at all that it is valid, but don't let them jump in or out of the car, over fences/walls or gates until they are about 15 months of age ie avoiding impactive work on the elbows. Result: neither has been officially hip or elbow scored as both are neutered, but Tarka has been xrayed recently for her tendon injury and would have 0/0 elbows and single digit hips. Lochan has 0/0 elbows and again would have a very low hip score, quite probably 0/0. So, was it my upbringing or their good genetics? Both I think. A lot (but not all) dogs we see in first opinion veterinary practice with symptoms of ED have either had trauma to the joint or are overweight or both. Please note the distinction between seeing dogs which have ED which are picked up as part of screening tests and are not lame, and those which have SYMPTOMS of ED ie are lame because of it and presented to the vet. The lame ones have often had trauma or weight issues. Pups with severe ED on xray may be lame however without any reported trauma or weight issues. According to an orthopaedic surgeon I know well, elbow scoring of parents to reduce the incidence of ED in their offspring does not appear to be as successful as the hip scoring scheme. Dogs we see with symptoms of HD are either young and lame and have very poor hips on xray, or are older and just present as lame arthritic dogs with the arthritis secondary to the HD. The older arthritic group are frequently overweight, and keeping labradors slim has been shown to reduce the onset and severity of hip arthritis dramatically. We see far fewer labs now with severe HD and symptoms at a young age than we did 30 years ago, and this is probably due to the hip scoring scheme and breeders selecting low hip scoring parents for their litters.

 

Re: Parent hip/elbow scores - are they an indication of predisposition to HD/ED?

Lochan, I love that you're a member of this forum as the knowledge that you bring is just fabulous! ;D
Clare

 

Re: Parent hip/elbow scores - are they an indication of predisposition to HD/ED?

Seconded. That is a great answer, thank you.

 

Re: Parent hip/elbow scores - are they an indication of predisposition to HD/ED?

You are both most welcome

 

Re: Parent hip/elbow scores - are they an indication of predisposition to HD/ED?

Penny's sire was 2:4 and her dam was either 4:4 or 4:5, I forget without digging out her paperwork. They're not perfect scores but actually a lot better than I first realised after I did some more in depth research. As you will know from my current thread we are just starting the process of investigating Penny's hips, I always planned for the eventuality that she would have it to some degree, so that if she did turn out to have it we wouldn't be totally shocked.

Hip scores don't really give you a guarantee that your pup will be 100% free of HD even if they both scored 0:0 but it is less likely they will develop the condition.
Also the degree of dysplasia doesn't always correlate with expression of symptoms - a dog could have major dysplasia and barely show any symptoms or they could only be mildly dysplasia and be in a lot of pain.

We never restricted her exercise that much, we didn't take her on hours long hikes or anything but we were sensible. I think that hip dysplasia only becomes a problem when it starts to cause arthritic changes in the joints and the more you can delay the onset of this, the better.

 

Re: Parent hip/elbow scores - are they an indication of predisposition to HD/ED?

I am just so sorry that any dog has to go through this pain both in the short and long term and for the huge upset this causes owners :'(.

Thank you Lochan for teaching me something new today. xx

 

Re: Parent hip/elbow scores - are they an indication of predisposition to HD/ED?

Very interesting, thanks Lochan

This is encouraging, though perhaps it is disappointing that mean hip scores have not come down more. After all, we have been scoring hips for a long time now.

We tend to think of HD as being confined to heavier dogs but interestingly, the worst case of hip dysplasia I (or my vet) has ever seen was in a cocker spaniel puppy that I bought from top trialling stock. Also interesting was that the litter was fed on an ad-lib system. The puppies had free access to a hopper that was permanently full of kibble . I kept this puppy on this regime for a short while when I got her home, but took her off it when I judged her growth rate to be rather alarming. I have always wondered whether the outcome would have been different had I restricted her growth when she was small.

 

Re: Parent hip/elbow scores - are they an indication of predisposition to HD/ED?

It seems to be a bit of a lottery. Benson's parents both had hip scores of 3/4 but their elbows were not scored. Benson's own scores were 4/5 for hips and a poor 2/2 for elbows. He is a big dog but I am very strict on his food intake and his weight has remained stable at 35kgs for the past 18 months and he is 4 this year. I exercise him twice a day for 90 minutes and he has shown no sign of lameness - why? I can only put it down to good luck which I know is a very unscientific explanation and hope that by carefully monitoring his weight and exercise that we can keep the dreaded dysplasia at bay at least until he is much older. Keeping fingers crossed!

Roger

 

Re: Parent hip/elbow scores - are they an indication of predisposition to HD/ED?

Lady's parents hip scores were fine, but can't recall what they were now because the vet nurse daughter of a friend who was buying from the same litter checked for me.

No HD with Lady, but ED in both elbows with the left worse than the right. Re Lochan's observation about trauma versus genetics, , I wonder if Lady's development of an ED related limp was trauma induced rather than genetic. When she was about 2 yrs old she jumped over a groyne on Brighton beach and there was a huge drop on the other side and she hurt her front legs on landing. The unexplained intermittent limp started up pretty much after that incident in hindsight.

 

Re: Parent hip/elbow scores - are they an indication of predisposition to HD/ED?

Phew - I've been a bit worried over the last few days, especially with the discussions on this thread making me think of all sorts of horrible scenarios. Poppy has been limping on and off since last Tuesday. We saw the vet today - Pops's wrist joint is swollen, and the tendon running down to her toe is inflamed and painful. She was so sweet and brave at the vet's, just a bit of lip-licking to show how nervous she was... So now we are on anti-inflammatories and lead walks for a week. Not so bad, considering!

 

Re: Parent hip/elbow scores - are they an indication of predisposition to HD/ED?

Hugs for Poppy. Hope the tennis ball chucker is buried deep somewhere where it will never be found. Glad it looks like a simple fix...
Clare

 

Re: Parent hip/elbow scores - are they an indication of predisposition to HD/ED?

Karen, I'm glad Poppy's injury isn't as bad as HD/ED. Brave Poppy. Harley sends her a big lick

 

Re: Parent hip/elbow scores - are they an indication of predisposition to HD/ED?

Hope it clears up quickly! Hugs all round

 

Re: Parent hip/elbow scores - are they an indication of predisposition to HD/ED?

Karen - I bet you have worried over time! Poor Poppy, and I hope it heals soon, but thank goodness nothing more serious. Hugs and tummy rubs sent from us.

 

Re: Parent hip/elbow scores - are they an indication of predisposition to HD/ED?

Hope she recovers quickly, poor girl.