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PAT Stop Raw Feeding :(

Discussion in 'Raw Feeding' started by charlie, Mar 12, 2018.

  1. charlie

    charlie Registered Users

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    I had an email from Pets as Therapy stating their new regulations.

    Due to Scientific research which is backed up by a number of vets, any dogs that are raw fed will not be signed up to PAT and current PAT dogs are not allowed to visit any NHS Trust, Educational facility, the elderley and immuo compromised patients due to the health risks which include E-Coli, Salmonella and Listeria. Lots of upset PAT owners stating their feelings.

    I hope they don't lose lots of valuable dogs due to this.

    Any views?

    xxx
     
  2. SwampDonkey

    SwampDonkey Registered Users

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    I'm immuno suppressed myself and it's one of the reasons I don't often feed raw. My consultant knows I'm careful but she's still not happy. I do occasionally but am really careful and use prepared raw
     
  3. Emily_BabbelHund

    Emily_BabbelHund Longest on the Forum without an actual dog Forum Supporter

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    I would like to see the scientific research that shows that dogs fed raw can pose a danger. I'm not saying it does or doesn't, but I'm always wary of anything where vets oppose feeding raw. I know this isn't true of all vets, but certainly there is a huge economic incentive for vets to not want people to feed raw and at least in the US, nutritional education during vet schooling is often sponsored by pet food manufacturers.

    I guess I can understand how a dog who eats a raw bit of chicken could then lick an immunocompromised person and spread e-coli. HOWEVER I would think that would be an argument for not letting ANY PAT dog come in contact with an immunocompromised person. You would have to guarantee...what? That essentially at no time prior to the visit (6 hours, a day, a month, forever?) the dog had not licked his behind, ate cat poo, investigated a dead fish, etc. etc. So all things that most dogs do.

    For that reason alone, I'd have to question why specifically RAW fed dogs were targeted as it seems any dog would be a risk. But again, I don't understand the science behind it and would be interested in better understanding what sort of research they are citing in their statement.
     
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  4. MF

    MF Registered Users

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    We’ve had the worst Listeria outbreak in history - 180 people dead. People ate contaminated polony. Polony is a processed meat product, not raw meat. Where does one draw the line? You could say kibble is as easily contaminated as raw food. Something just doesn’t add up in the PAT statement.
     
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  5. Emily_BabbelHund

    Emily_BabbelHund Longest on the Forum without an actual dog Forum Supporter

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    Well said.

    And that's terrible about the listeria outbreak. :(
     
  6. charlie

    charlie Registered Users

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    There was no scientific research offered to back up this claim. I guess PAT might have to go along with it as it's the NHS and Educational Departments which are obviously the most PAT visited places. I do feed Hattie a little raw occasionally so it's a dilema.

    The next thing to happen, I feel, is bathing PAT dogs. I have already been asked some months ago at the Hospital if I bath Hattie before I go in, 'NO I DON'T as it's bad for her skin, and I won't if I'm asked, I would just not visit which would be a shame." I did make the point that some patients are allowed to have their own dogs visit so would they have to be bathed?

    They also said no homeopathy treated dogs and all dogs should be vaccinated, which I do agree with but not everyone does.

    I feel it could all get out of hand. xx
     
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  7. Emily_BabbelHund

    Emily_BabbelHund Longest on the Forum without an actual dog Forum Supporter

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    Mmmm...yeah, definitely suspicious when the word 'research' is used, but no actual citing of any research.

    Of course I don't know if applies in this case, but so much of what is 'clean' is a cultural thing. Why, for example, are all dogs allowed into nearly every restaurant in the part of Germany I live in, yet people are HORRIFIED at the idea of an assistance dog going into a supermarket? Food is out in the open in a restaurant and is out in the open (but less so) in a supermarket. In California, most restaurants don't even allow dogs on open patios outdoors, yet it seems to be totally fine to change a baby's soiled diaper right there were everyone is eating. There's just so much weirdness about what is dirty and what isn't.

    For the bathing thing, I was taught in assistance dog school that Brogan always needed to be very clean as he would be going into places like restaurants and grocery stores. I gave him a bath every Saturday morning until we came to Europe and not having a shower he would fit in most of the time kind of put an end to that. The whole 'don't bathe your dog" thing was a new thing to me introduced by the forum. Live and learn! :)

    So are all these new rules based on the honour system, then? Or do you think you will get specific guidelines? As in "Bath your dog within 24 hours of a visit" or "Any dog who has eaten raw food in the past year cannot make a PAT visit". Just wondering how it's all regulated...
     
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  8. charlie

    charlie Registered Users

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  9. charlie

    charlie Registered Users

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    They are new regulations and it's a simple NO raw fed dogs will be allowed to visit XYZ places. I await the bathing of dogs which I feel will follow, but I could be wrong, lets hope so. x
     
  10. Emily_BabbelHund

    Emily_BabbelHund Longest on the Forum without an actual dog Forum Supporter

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    So nothing about spreading e-coli etc to humans from a dog who has eaten raw, only the confirmation (that I think everyone is aware of) that handling raw food (for humans or for dogs) can be dangerous and needs to be done carefully.

    I guess they can make any rules they want and of course you'd never want anyone to get sick from a PAT visit, but it really doesn't seem like it's based on any new research or knowledge.
     
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  11. charlie

    charlie Registered Users

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    Nothing about infecting humans after handling a dog that's raw fed. As you say it's about basic hygiene when preparing raw food. What about dogs that scavange? Hattie found part of a deer at the weekend, she dragged the leg along following David and Charlie until he got it off her, pheasants dead or alive, dead rabbits etc. I think it's unrealistic, PAT are over reacting. So if Hattie had a chicken drumbstick for dinner tonight and I visit the Hospital/Hospice on Friday is she able to transmit these diseases?

    PAT are playing safe, as you said, nobody wants to cause any sickness to already vulnerable patients, if that is the case as there has been no evidence supplied to confirm this. x
     
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  12. Penny+Me

    Penny+Me Registered Users

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    My friend has a PAT dog who she has had to stop using due to the fact she is raw fed and also because she titre tests instead of vaccinates every year. Its really sad because she is such a lovely gentle dog who everyone loves.
     
  13. Snowy

    Snowy Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    Shot in the dark (and a pure guess )

    Their decision isn't made by them and possibly not based on any scientific evidence.

    It's simply that their insurance company thought there was some level of increased risk there, and rather than taking time and cost to investigate, they just state: "No raw".
     
  14. SwampDonkey

    SwampDonkey Registered Users

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    Those were my thoughts too, the fear of litigation is often an issue these days.
     
  15. SteffiS

    SteffiS Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    My sister is a retired nurse and has lectured me on the dangers of feeding Ripple raw. I always say it depends what study you read. I'm pretty paranoid about careful handling of raw as I had food poisoning once from pork chops (in the days when I ate pork).
    But I guess it is likely to be an insurance company thing. It is an uncomfortable choice for those who have PAT dogs and feed raw.
     
  16. SwampDonkey

    SwampDonkey Registered Users

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    Maybe everyone should just boycott any place that bans raw fed dogs. I know it would be hard but I think the work that is done needs to be respected a bit more.
     
  17. MF

    MF Registered Users

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    Just heard on the radio that a dog in South Africa also got sick from eating polony contaminated with listeria. It did survive. A “golden” spaniel. The owner, an old lady, landed up in ICU.

    I can understand that one doesn’t want to risk a sick person who is immunocompromised being exposed to potentially lethal bacteria, but that goes for visitors, too - all should wash their hands and wear hospital socks over their shoes and wear masks over their mouths. But to “normally” sick people, banning raw-fed dogs seems to be losing sight of just how many vectors for disease there are.
     
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  18. Jojo83

    Jojo83 Registered Users

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    There have been several studies published relating to dogs fed on a raw diet, they are relatively easy to find on the internet - the University of Utrecht comes to mind and also one in Australia which looked at feeding raw chicken. It is possible to find fault with the studies, as there are with most studies, in that the numbers were small, methods used, what it was looking for, who sponsored it etc etc. The fact is that the result of the studies shows a link and there is some support as well from the FDA from their tests.

    https://www.fda.gov/AnimalVeterinary/ResourcesforYou/AnimalHealthLiteracy/ucm373757.htm

    It really isn't a question as to whether you are pro raw or not, or whether you believe the studies or not, it's that bodies such as the NHS, PAT etc have to aware of the potential risk and be cautious it is of course other peoples health they are responsible. No doubt their insurers have applied pressure because of the potential for being sued if there is an incident which could be linked to a raw fed dog.
     
  19. SwampDonkey

    SwampDonkey Registered Users

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    There would have been risk assessment forms flying round in big flocks.
     
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  20. SwampDonkey

    SwampDonkey Registered Users

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    You know what I mean you've been there;)
     

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