I thought I'd start a place board specific thread so people could post their tips and exercise, experience and questions.
Re: Place Boards I've been using place boards with my spaniel mainly as a problem solving activity. He's got that typical spaniel wriggly bum and finds it hard to stay put. He's also somewhat possessive of objects in general, sticks and dummies in particular So I'm using it to help his habit of keep away. For those of you who haven't seen it here's our garden based retrieving. You can see he's steady til I send him and returns with a nice delivery. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsOQ2qR3AOA I've thought and focused a lot on how the dogs behave on the boards and what the boards do for the dogs. They are a visible platform. A fixed point for return and to be stationary on. What I hadn't thought about until yesterday was what the boards did for me!!! In raising the dog up I don't have to bend over the dog as much to take the dummy, they make me more aware of my posture. You will probably never see me take delivery of a dummy like that from Riley with the upright body and bending at the knees. It's just not a natural way for me to move but mantling over your dogs is one of the easiest ways to spoil their delivery. The other thing (and possibly the most important) thing the board does is it stops me from rushing and prevents me moving towards the dog at all. My toes are already against the edge of the board and I know I have to wait for the dog to be on the board so I that's exactly what I do - I wait !!! I've seen an improvement (but far from perfect) in Obi's delivery out and about without the board and I was thinking about it and thought maybe the change wasn't in him but in me ;D So I've used the boards for remedial work.................who uses them proactively to train certain behaviours and how do you do it? Pros and cons to board use?
Re: Place Boards Thanks for starting this thread Barbara Riley and Obi look splendid sitting on their place boards I have a question that I have asked a few times but have not had a response, think I have been forgotten ;D I am still only using a place mat (still waiting for my board : but it works well, I am very new to this training which I only started in January. I can send Charlie to the mat sit and wait for as long as I want him to from all directions and at a good 20 meters which I am slowly increasing, we have also progressed to the garden. I am only using this training to improve his stop whistle, so when should I introduce the stop whistle on the mat and how often should I train it? I don't want to ruin the progress I have made with it which is not that much really Thank you xx
Re: Place Boards I haven't used place boards for stop whistle training so I'm not sure how best to go about it but if you can send Charlie to the mat from a distance I would put the stop whistle in as his bum hits the mat. How do you reward Charlie once he's on the mat? And what do you want him to do after the stop? For gundogs it's the foundation from which you handle them to a retrieve but I don't think you're doing that kind of work with Charlie are you? The biggest problem with the stop whistle is that it's seen by the dog as a negative so don't use it a lot or very frequently and reward it highly Jo Laurens posted this in the Positive Gundogs page. She's doing 3 handed casting with her lab. When she's in the garden you can hear her peep on her whistle when Moye gets to the mat(certainly on the "Backs" at around 5 minutes in, I haven't watched the whole thing recently) I don't think she'll mind me posting it here as it's a public video. It's very useful!!! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOSXEx6mOlQ&list=UUFRZYvku_hSPx7NMqggyIpA
Re: Place Boards Great link thanks Barbara. I can't see if Jo is releasing her dog from the mat as it seems to wander off, Charlie sits firm until I release him she is using the stop whistle quite a lot. I have done just a few stop whistles as his bum hits the mat and he's really good I reward him with cheese, chicken whatever I have. I really want to build up a solid stop whistle to use out and about. I haven't been using it for retrieving but looking at the video I could do some casting using more mats and then introduce retrieving his dummy :-\ So if my intention is not to use it mainly for retrieving is this the wrong method of training for a good stop whistle? Thank you x
Re: Place Boards [quote author=charlie link=topic=10822.msg161224#msg161224 date=1430824972] So if my intention is not to use it mainly for retrieving is this the wrong method of training for a good stop whistle? [/quote] It's not the wrong method at all and I'm sorry if I gave that impression. It's just easier to reward the stop if you're retrieving because the retrieve becomes the reward. The dog learns that if they stop and listen to you they get what they want (the dummy). You won't have as many opportunities to practice your stop as someone who's out retrieving would have so you will just need to put your thinking cap on as to how you progress from mats in the garden to out and about. Will you take your mats with you to a few new spots to help Charlie generalise?
Re: Place Boards Oh no you didn't give that impression at all, I'm just trying to get things clear in my mind As Charlie isn't the most enthusiastic retriever on the planet, I don't know how I can progress with the mat to help him generalise as there are no suitable areas, it's garden to open countryside Thanks xx
Re: Place Boards You may be over thinking this Helen Just pop your mat in a backpack and take it out with you. Find a corner by some hedges or a fence somewhere if there's nowhere completely closed in and do some work close to you with the mat. See if he'll go on it somewhere new go back to the beginning and ask for easy things then gradually build up just as you did in your garden. Pick 2 or 3 spots on your normal walks.
Re: Place Boards There doesn't have to be anything negative about a stop whistle if completely trained on a placeboard - the dog is going somewhere to get a reward, and the action of turning to sit and look at the handler is established before the stop whistle is associated with that, so the dog is only engaged in earning a reward, not stopped from continuing. I did answer your question about the stop whistle and placeboards, Helen. Here: http://www.thelabradorforum.com/index.php?topic=10592.msg158630#msg158630 In this video of Charlie going to his placeboard, I would blow my stop whistle as he starts to lower his bum to the board (I don't, in the vid, but I would if I wanted to associate that action with the stop whistle). https://www.flickr.com/photos/123706979@N04/15952177838/ I throw a ball to reward Charlie (he brings it back to me, but he doesn't have to - it's not a retrieve, it's a reward).
Re: Place Boards Thanks Barbara, I think this would be too difficult for Charlie as he is just complete action stations, no hanging around, just managing to get a 30 second off lead sit & wait Maybe sometime in the future but just too much for my boy xx
Re: Place Boards 30 seconds is aaaaaaagggggggeeeeeesssssssss!!!!!!!!!! If you have a 30 second off lead sit and wait put that sit and wait on the mat in one place. Then the next time put the mat in the same place and ask for 32 seconds or ask for 15 seconds with you 2 feet away instead of right next to him. Then 35 seconds......then 20 seconds 4 feet away........ That's what we all have to do, some dogs find it easier and catch on quicker sure but believe me Obi doesn't want to hang around. He does it because there's something in it for him and slowly but surely I get longer and longer sit/stays btw Julie - my comments on stop whistle and negativity are probably entirely driven from teaching a stop without a board. Got any more vids or guidance for people? I know you've done loads more board work than I have
Re: Place Boards Hi Julie, thank you very much, so sorry I didn't see your reply :-[ This was how I thought I could achieve a stop, Charlie goes to the mat turns, sits, looks and waits so now this is established I could use the stop whistle and not ruin what I already have even if used a lot :-\ I then go and treat generously or with a dummy/ball? x
Re: Place Boards I don't have time to read this in detail at the moment, but thanks for posting this, Barbara. I'll definitely be reading it on my return as I've bought some stuff for DH to make me a couple of place boards, and some high-density foam to make more portable place markers. It's one of the things I'd like to cover a bit of with the trainer tomorrow (tomorrow - eeek!!) if she thinks we're ready for it.
Re: Place Boards [quote author=bbrown link=topic=10822.msg161208#msg161208 date=1430817050] So I've used the boards for remedial work.................who uses them proactively to train certain behaviours and how do you do it? Pros and cons to board use? [/quote] I wish I had used place boards from the get go - I love them, and Charlie loves them. It's easier to say what I haven't used them for, really.... I started "training" place boards last year, and really took my time over it. One reason for this was that I had no clue, really, what I was going to do with them! I was just training them because my trainer told me to do so! What that meant was I didn't think about anything but getting the behaviour perfect, and perfectly on cue. But since then, I've used them for loads of things. Back, left and right and moving on to T drills - now ever increasing distances Sit on my left, sit straight in front, sit for delivery at the end of a retrieve. Sit and wait And stop whistle Some steadiness, but I'm careful with this, because I don't want to spoil my placeboard work The thing they are the most useful for is proofing. Because behaviour on the placeboards is so very strong, it overcomes a great many distractions - plus I proofed them to death when I trained them. So, for example, in a very exciting place Charlie was so distracted he couldn't even sit when asked. But get a placeboard out and he is suddenly able to do just about all his behaviours. This is just because the placeboards were trained 100% positively, slowly and carefully and the cues involving them have never been "poisoned" or corrupted in anyway. I think they are fab.
Re: Place Boards I had to think quite carefully about the disadvantages, really. Well, you have to carry them around in order to use them to proof stuff. This has not been such a biggy, really although is often given as a reason for using mats. I'm not going to go for a walk with three mats either. I have had to think carefully about driving places I train and make sure I work in the placeboards not too far from the car. It helps that I have six placeboards, so I can leave some in Cornwall etc. I suppose the other thing was I got quite "into" doing drills on the placeboards - back, left, right, stop. Which made it a bit tricky for me to ask for more. So, for example, the first time I asked Charlie to go right after a stop, all he did was hunt for his ball - because I get my ball after I've gone back and sat down, and nothing else is happening until I've got my ball! But I'm not sure that's about placeboards, really.
Re: Place Boards Someone on Positive Gundogs said they thought they were hard to fade but I'm not sure they'd be any harder than mats except you can make a mat smaller and turn it into a marker rather than something to be sat *on*. Time will tell I suppose
Re: Place Boards [quote author=bbrown link=topic=10822.msg161286#msg161286 date=1430843244] Someone on Positive Gundogs said they thought they were hard to fade but I'm not sure they'd be any harder than mats except you can make a mat smaller and turn it into a marker rather than something to be sat *on*. Time will tell I suppose [/quote] On stationary behaviour, I haven't had to fade the boards at all. So my cue "front" (which is just move to sit in front of me from wherever you happen to be) was trained on a board, remove the board and it's still as good as it was. But no messing getting the great behaviour to put on cue - all I had to do was put a placeboard in front of me. In terms of cues at a distance, you are supposed to fade out the placeboards in grass. So move the placeboards further and further away until the dog can't quite see them, and then can't see them at all. It's an advantage that they are harder to fade than mats in this respect, because mats fade in grass too quickly, before you really have much distance at all.
Re: Place Boards [quote author=JulieT link=topic=10822.msg161288#msg161288 date=1430843778] In terms of cues at a distance, you are supposed to fade out the placeboards in grass. So move the placeboards further and further away until the dog can't quite see them, and then can't see them at all. It's an advantage that they are harder to fade than mats in this respect, because mats fade in grass too quickly, before you really have much distance at all. [/quote] I was thinking of using white electric fence poles if I wanted markers for the dog at a distance as I thought even boards would fade from view quite quickly in any length of grass.......all just musings at the moment as I don't send Obi to anything at the moment.
