Problem transferring skills

Discussion in 'Clicker Training' started by Jen, Nov 30, 2013.

  1. Jen

    Jen Registered Users

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Messages:
    2,897
    Hi

    I'm a bit stuck! I'm having difficulty transferring the very good sit stay we have outside to inside. :(

    Outside they are well proofed against anything I can do. We are still working on very exciting influences beyond my control, eg my auntie walking up the drive shouting good dogs!!!! but im very pleased with their progress.

    I've used the kikopup method so the C&T reinforces the sit I don't use it as a release.

    Indoors we aren't quite as good. Certain situations are good like sit stay at a door or sit stay while I'm getting their food. Scout was always like an over excited kangaroo and has improved a lot.

    The main problem is when I'm eating. Ive always 'tried ' to have them sat by me but they get ants in their pants! Stand,sit, move ,fidget. I decided to try C&T but not sure if I'm doing it right. For example if scout wanders a bit but Scott stays sat I C&T Scott for staying to reinforce good dog thats what you should do. This of course brings scout back in a flash. Do I C&T because he has assumed the correct position or am I rewarding the wandering then coming back?

    Also if I've told them to sit and they move do I repeat the command but not C&T or do I ignore that behaviour and wait for them to return to the sit then C&T.

    I don't know why but it seems harder and more confusing indoors ! :(

    Jen
     
  2. ClareJ

    ClareJ Registered Users

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2013
    Messages:
    1,052
    Re: Problem transferring skills

    [quote author=Jen link=topic=3485.msg38379#msg38379 date=1385796454]
    I've used the kikopup method so the C&T reinforces the sit I don't use it as a release.

    Do I C&T because he has assumed the correct position or am I rewarding the wandering then coming back?

    Also if I've told them to sit and they move do I repeat the command but not C&T or do I ignore that behaviour and wait for them to return to the sit then C&T.

    [/quote]

    I've been doing the same, Jen, so the C&T is for continuing the behaviour and not a release. I'm sure that in the kikopup video, if they break the correct position, she returns them to it without C&T, which they only get then if they continue to do as required.

    My issues are the reverse of yours, inasmuch as that we are doing well indoors - if you can call it well to be able to sing Twinkle Twinkle Little Star and dance around your dog whilst she sits, must remember to draw the curtains! :eek: It's outside we need to work on...

    If you are worried about introducing confusion, could you treat your mealtimes as a different exercise and have a 'mat' command for that? It might help protect your 'sit'?? Factor in that's a suggestion from someone without a huge amount of experience of clicker training, but it's the route I might be tempted to go down in order to protect all the good work you have done on sit so far.

    I agree with you that it can get confusing - I found that if I was watching videos of different trainers, all sorts of tiny inconsistencies in the way they used the clicker were creeping in. I'm now sticking to kikopup...
    Clare
     
  3. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2013
    Messages:
    20,186
    Re: Problem transferring skills

    Have you watched the longer kikopup sit stay? The 18 minute version? There are a few techniques in this that are covered in more detail than the quick version.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?annota...&feature=iv&src_vid=ksBLKi6lj1s&v=Vk4PPcE1CqY

    I thought I'd work through this for two reasons: Charlie's sit/stay is a bit wobbly, and his release cue is not always so hot, and this video concentrates on these two things. The other reason I'm doing it is because I can do a lot of it inside while Charlie is still on limited exercise!

    It also starts by concentrating on the dog keeping its back paws glued to the ground, even if you ask for a position change. Jen, this might help with the fidgets.

    In this video, if the dog moves, she lures it back into position or repeats the command but does not treat. In fact DO NOT TREAT flashes up on the screen in capitals!

    I've got some questions though, as always. The first is that she concentrates on a single release cue, but I'd also want Charlie to release on other commands. So do I need to work that in? Be grateful if anyone has watched it or worked through it.
     
  4. Jen

    Jen Registered Users

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Messages:
    2,897
    Re: Problem transferring skills

    The mat is a good idea Clare I might have a go at that just not sure how practical with two. Get confusing if they go for tha same mat! ;D might try twinkle twinkle though. ;)

    I've watched the longer version Julie but I don't think I concentrated on it enough so will watch again thanks.

    I think it depends what commands you want him to release on Julie. If its a random words then I think you'd have to train them all as release words if it's another command like heel or come then because it's a new command you want the dog to do as long as that behaviour is already trained the dog should do it. eg. sit stay moving to heel when told heel. Not sure that makes sense. :eek:

    Jen

    Ps. Remembered we have some carpet tiles I could use to train 'mat' will watch the kikopup mat training video but at what point do you remove the mat? ???
     
  5. ClareJ

    ClareJ Registered Users

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2013
    Messages:
    1,052
    Re: Problem transferring skills

    [quote author=JulieT link=topic=3485.msg38387#msg38387 date=1385798967]

    I've got some questions though, as always. The first is that she concentrates on a single release cue, but I'd also want Charlie to release on other commands. So do I need to work that in? Be grateful if anyone has watched it or worked through it.
    [/quote]

    I watched it after you recommended to me a little while back, Julie, and it is definitely more helpful than the short version...

    I think the problem you will have is that she is training companion animals, therefore she only ever wants that one release command, whereas because you are following gundog training with Charlie, you will quite naturally release him from a sit using a second working command. Her release means, 'I'm done, you're free', whereas yours will often be 'And this is your next task'. As you know, I have no experience of the gundog training, but as I see it, I wouldn't worry too much about needing to use more than one command - yes, you'll want something that's the equivalent of 'stand down' for indoors, but from Charlie's perspective, he will just learn to sit until he is asked to do something else...
    Clare
     
  6. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2013
    Messages:
    20,186
    Re: Problem transferring skills

    Yes, I'll just work in the other commands instead of the release as I go, that'll work I think. Many thanks.

    I like following a video, it helps me hugely, and although this vid does go over old ground I think it'll be useful for us. It's a bit drawn out and precise, but we've got time on our hands right now...
     
  7. ClareJ

    ClareJ Registered Users

    Joined:
    Nov 8, 2013
    Messages:
    1,052
    Re: Problem transferring skills

    [quote author=JulieT link=topic=3485.msg38396#msg38396 date=1385805155]

    It's a bit drawn out and precise, but we've got time on our hands right now...
    [/quote]

    Right now, drawn out and precise is exactly what I need!! ;D ;D Thanks for directing me to it originally.
    Clare
     
  8. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2013
    Messages:
    20,186
    Re: Problem transferring skills

    [quote author=Jen link=topic=3485.msg38388#msg38388 date=1385800002]
    Ps. Remembered we have some carpet tiles I could use to train 'mat' will watch the kikopup mat training video but at what point do you remove the mat? ???
    [/quote]

    There is a Pippa article somewhere - she said you can chop up the mat (you could use a towel) so it gets smaller and smaller, until you've no mat. I'll see whether I can find it...
     
  9. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2013
    Messages:
    20,186
    Re: Problem transferring skills

    I mis-remembered about the Pippa article - it's a stop pestering article (don't see why it wouldn't work for eating too though) where there is the chop up the mat idea.

    http://www.thelabradorsite.com/?p=2742
     
  10. Jen

    Jen Registered Users

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Messages:
    2,897
    Re: Problem transferring skills

    Thanks Julie. Really helpful article.

    I need to find the time to look through all the articles on the web site. ::)

    My two do pester and I know it's my fault and I know why and when it started. Yet again it's a problem caused by that pesky bladder infection. If I didn't keep them entertained or near me they'd wander and end up weeing everywhere. Not their fault obviously but inconvenient whilst eating! :mad:

    I know it will be difficult to retrain but at least they respond well to the clicker so fingers crossed. ::)
     
  11. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2013
    Messages:
    20,186
    Re: Problem transferring skills

    You're doing wonderfully with them Jen - don't know how you cope with two! More than twice the work, it sounds. (So why am I thinking "need a spaniel" ::)).
     
  12. Jen

    Jen Registered Users

    Joined:
    Aug 30, 2013
    Messages:
    2,897
    Re: Problem transferring skills

    Thanks Julie

    I probably shouldn't encourage you but we meet a man on our walk with a cocker. He always had retrievers before. This morning we were talking dog, as you do, he was telling me his cocker is much more obedient with recall etc than the retrievers and as I've said before when I've looked after my sisters cocker whose only 9 months he's so easy comes running back for the whistle nothing like any lab I've had.

    So you'd have best of both worlds. ;)
     

Share This Page