I posted this question on positive gundogs: I have a boy on the excited end of the scale. He is excitable. Not at all fearful or anxious. Other dogs have been, and continue to be, a big challenge for us. Nothing else apart from dummies and balls is as much of a challenge (and the easy answer to that is that I am the one with a dummy or the ball) and he'll stay at heel on and off lead through most other distractions. But he wants to play with other dogs. Really, really, wants to play. We work hard on this, and things are sloooowly getting better. We can walk passed other dogs on lead now. We can even walk nicely passed barky excited dogs on lead now (although we are far from perfect at that). My main tactic is to reward for being calm - as soon as we enter a situation where he would start being silly, but is still calm, I reward and keep rewarding if he stays calm. If he gets excited, I reward any reduction in excitement levels (marked with a clicker) and increase distance from the thing which makes him excited (which he finds very frustrating and makes him whine, which I don't like and want to find a way to avoid). Our challenge right now is off lead dogs. If he is on lead and watching off lead dogs playing (let alone working or retrieving) it's difficult. So I have taken careful note of the "work below the threshold" advice - I try to keep him at a distance where he can still respond to me, and I can still get his attention. I try to increase distance if he gets over excited. This makes life difficult - my life isn't arranged in one long dog training exercise. I wonder if I'm taking this a bit too far and getting confused - and it is all taking an impractical long, long time. All the time I spend keeping my distance from things that make him excited means his experiences are narrow. Sometimes I just wonder what would happen if I just kept walking him around off lead dogs playing or working and wait for him to calm down. That is, a more in at the deep end approach to desensitisation. He is 16 months now but has been on crate rest and very restricted exercise between the ages of 8months and 15months (which hasn't helped matters). He is well exercised now. Any thoughts and tips very much appreciated. I got this reply (among many others it’s simply conditioning the dog to focus on you regardless of distraction. I understand it as classically conditioning the dog to engage with you in response to a distraction, the distraction then becomes the cue for the wanted behaviour - engagement with you. Once you have focus/engagement then the dog is in responsive mood to training. Without that then training is pointless. This scenario is a bit different to using external rewards (like being sent for a play or a retrieve) as rewards for wanted behaviours. That only applies if the dog has responded correctly on cue. In situations like this, where the dog is too excited to focus on anything but the distraction, it will have no interest in you or in taking rewards from the hand. So I teach all my dogs to catch a tossed reward, which also comes in handy with other behaviours, especially those requiring reward at a distance. This then becomes an established/conditioned reflex action that is more likely to kick in automatically when the dog is in a distracted state. A dog that is too excited to be interested in ‘hand’ rewards will invariably take a tossed one. You might require 2 or 3 initially but the first time the dog takes one of them then you have it hooked. Toss it another straight away. The more you practice this ‘ritual’ with a dog the quicker it will learn to break away focus on you. So you’ve got a dog straining at the leash totally absorbed in a distraction & deaf & blind to you & everything else around it. If you wait quietly it will eventually relax after a while. Immediately it does ‘click’ & it may look at you at the sound of the clicker. If it does then toss a reward at it - doubt it would come to hand at this stage - but if it just cocks an ear at you or half looks then toss a reward to bounce off its nose. If it doesn’t look down & search for the reward but perhaps just flinches & bends its head around a little more - you’ll clearly see when its attention is shifting - then toss another & another. Within 3 or 4 it will either look down to investigate & pick one off the floor, whereupon you click & toss another, or it may start snapping at the rewards but missing, or may catch one. Either way click a snap/catch & toss another & by this stage it will be turning to see where all the rewards are coming from & you now have it in the palm of your hand. Once you’ve got it there, KEEP IT THERE! Don’t let its attention wander back to the distraction but keep tossing it rewards & clicking when it catches or scrabbles for them on the ground & comes back for more & slowly walk it away a few paces from the distraction as you keep tossing rewards bit this time lower your hand & slow the toss a little so the dog has the opportunity of pre-empting the toss by moving nearer the hand & pretty soon you’ll see that its mindset has changed & its ready to take rewards from the hand. If its slow at this then keep tossing rewards & moving away from the distraction & eventually it will. Next time around it will be quicker. Once it is totally focussed on you & anticipating/taking hand rewards then the lesson is over so walk the dog away from the distraction, still keeping its attention with judicious rewards until you are safely away. Then repeat, repeat, repeat this procedure over days/weeks/months/years (nah, it’ll not take that long!) until the dog see the distraction/s & either immediately focusses on you or you can easily get its attention because the distraction is no more. Getting back to the start, if you have little patience & you seem to be waiting an age for the dog to relax from pulling your arm off, then you can fast-track the beginning by either simply bouncing rewards off its nose or luring it away with a reward shoved right under its nose, or a combination of both. In either case, keep pestering the dog with rewards until it starts wondering what all the fuss is about & its attention on the distraction begins to crumble. I’ve never had such a case but there is always the option of starting the whole procedure farther away from the distraction. I’ve not had to use this method with the distraction of other dogs but a friend stayed with us last summer who had a young border collie (a townie) that went bonkers when it saw all the cattle but I had captured its focus within one short lesson & by the end of the week it was hardly giving the cattle a second glance as we walked past them. And then another reply from the same author as the reply I pasted above in blue (with my answers not in bold “You reward the dog & keep on rewarding it when it exhibits calm behaviour. What’s the general distance this would this be from the other dogs?” It depends on his reaction. It’s not always the same. Variables are how exciting the general environment. Windy, new, smelly field, bouncing puppies – super exciting. Another dog retrieving – nuclear reaction at half a mile. Familiar quiet park, old Labrador toddling along – not so exciting. I try to watch him and judge. Very rarely, the distance can be zero. Tonight, he sniffed an off lead, old, quiet, Golden and walked away like a sane, normal dog. “Do you reward by tossing food to him or does he come & take it out of your hand?” I have a “GET THE TREAT!” cue, where the treat is tossed, rolled, danced round – in a big game – if this doesn’t work, nothing will. If he is taking food out of my hand, I can get his attention and it’s “safe” to move closer. “Is he giving you eye contact &/or focussed on you when you do this or is he looking at the other dogs but remaining calm? “ It depends. If I can get his attention, sometimes I can keep it – I usually want him to walk, engaged with me (in his get the treat game or some other game). Sometimes I can get repeated looks at me and back to the dogs. Sometimes I can get nothing. “What does he do after you have rewarded him? Do you give any commands/cues?” As above, I usually want him to walk, and keep his attention on me. I sometimes ask for simple things like hand targets, or playing other games, things like that, anything I judge he can do. “The idea behind the method I described relies on the dog being deeply distracted, so you need to be closer than the distance that it would normally respond at (what is that distance?). “ I can’t tell you in feet, but I know where it is in any particular circumstance. And that is very much my question – should I move closer? “You wouldn’t be able to attract the dog’s attention at this distance with its name, say, for its attention will be totally focussed upon the distraction. “ That’s right, yes. “What you’re doing now is how you proof ‘normal’ behaviours to normal distractions, but this dog has an abnormal response to this particular distraction. It’s a problem behaviour, like chasing joggers or people on bikes, so you need to approach it more head on. “ Ok “If the dog is properly focussed upon you (rather than with half an eye still on the distraction), then that should be to the exclusion of everything else & in that mind-set there would be no room for frustration. It sounds like the moving it back & forth is giving rise to the frustration, so pick a distance where it is distracted & stick to it until it is totally focussed on you to the extent that it will take rewards from the hand. “ Ok – so I move closer. This means the bad behaviour is rehearsed. The bad behaviour will persist, perhaps for some time until he relaxes enough to return his attention to me. This is the very point of my question, and the point I find worrying. So I have to live with the rehearsal of the undesirable behaviour, and bank on it ending – ie me getting his attention – after an unknown amount of time. "You should be able to break the dogs focus within a few minutes with a mixture of flicked reward & luring. It shouldn’t be taking forever. Maybe you could look at some u-tube clips on how the process works with cyclists & joggers, I’m sure there’ll be something on there. You could also try a different reward, perhaps consider a tug toy, but learn how to use one properly of you go down that road." Well, so far, I have removed him when I can’t break his focus – and I have failed with flicked raw steak…. The question I have (which you have helpfully answered – thank you) is what do I do? Do I walk away, or do I stay and let the behaviour persist until, eventually, I get his attention. I have already successfully dealt with joggers, bikers, people lying on the floor doing yoga moves (I DO live in Wimbledon), seagulls, ducks, swans and lots of other stuff. Other dogs – not so. And the final bit of the exchange: “Once you get a response to tossed treats try walking backwards away from the distraction as you get him more interested in tossed treats, & keep tossing them quite rapidly, one after the other, so he is looking to expect them & doesn’t get chance to look elsewhere before another one wings his way.” Ok, that’s good. I can see how moving backwards, away from the distraction, tossing the treats gets me over the frustration of moving away. “As regards moving him into the distraction zone, I feel you have to do this.” Yes, the trainer I am working with feels the same (but was unable to explain why – so I lost some confidence). “What you are doing now isn’t working. The chemical triggers coursing through his blood can’t last forever & sooner or later he will relax a little & that is the time you will be in a position to distract him.” Yes, that makes sense. It’s a bit scary to let the bad behaviour persist though. I think you are right. "But I wouldn’t use any cues. You know that if you wait long enough you will be able to distract him, so persevere. And as I mentioned. once you’ve got his attention, (try the walking backwards away from the distraction as you reward him trick. Once he commits to this you can drop it off but it’s always a good ruse to get the dog chasing the reward) totally, never push your luck & move closer." Yes, ok. I can try this on Monday when I’ll have a proper “set up” arranged with a dog trained to sit still no matter what Charlie does. That’s a safe way to see what happens.
Re: Question I posted on facebook site All very interesting - having an excitable dog myself I may well borrow this Thanks for sharing, Julie 8)
Re: Question I posted on facebook site You are welcome, UncleBob! I'm glad it's helpful. The other reason for posting was to redirect the person replying to view the conversation here so we could understand each other! The formatting on Facebook is so absolutely hopeless, we struggled badly with such a long conversation! :
Re: Question I posted on facebook site That person has been very generous with their advice and I think it is good advice too.
Re: Question I posted on facebook site [quote author=Oberon link=topic=6934.msg94224#msg94224 date=1405029689] That person has been very generous with their advice and I think it is good advice too. [/quote] Very, very, kind, I thought. Must have taken a lot of trouble to consider and type. I thanked him a lot. (It also matters that you think it's good advice though )
Re: Question I posted on facebook site Thanks for posting this Julie, it's incredibly informative and something that we have been doing with Hattie & Charlie to help with focus around distractions, especially Charlie and using the dried Sprats really helps. Nice man to write such a detailed response. Direct him on the forum x
Re: Question I posted on facebook site [quote author=charlie link=topic=6934.msg94250#msg94250 date=1405063052] Thanks for posting this Julie, it's incredibly informative and something that we have been doing with Hattie & Charlie to help with focus around distractions, especially Charlie and using the dried Sprats really helps. Nice man to write such a detailed response. Direct him on the forum x [/quote] It was very nice of him. Maybe he'll come on the forum. Do you operate "over the threshold" with Hattie and Charlie? There is a lot of stuff in the answer (and in my question) so I think the key point (for me anyway) might be missed. I have been keeping Charlie at a distance where he can still keep his attention on me, and trying to close that distance to distractions. This discussion was about closing that distance before Charlie can "cope". That is, deliberately taking him in too close to a distraction. This is not something I think anyone with a fearful dog should do, and perhaps not for anyone as a first strategy.
Re: Question I posted on facebook site I am in the very early stages of this and really I have only started using it with Hattie after a stop whistle if she has spotted something so the tossed sprats help her focus on me. It is taking sometime with Charlie, no surprises there :, but I have been practising in the yard with keeping his focus on me and tossing the treats to him, also when practising the stop whistle he looks at me so I keep him in the sit for a couple of seconds and toss the treat. Probably wrong but it seems to work. I will have to keep re-reading this to make sure I do this correctly as it looks very useful
Re: Question I posted on facebook site It sounds good to me, Helen, tossing treats around to keep attention works fine, I think. With my Charlie, the decision I am trying to make is whether to take him close to off lead dogs - to the extent that I can't hope to get his attention with a tossed treat - and wait for him to calm down a bit (which I will then mark and reward). I haven't been doing this. I have been staying further away and trying to close the distance while staying in control - which isn't working.
Re: Question I posted on facebook site If the distance isn't working Julie I would take him closer and then work on the distance with better treats. If my Charlie spots a bird or a dog that always barks at him nothing at all will work, so we have to wait for him to calm down and sometimes he will take a treat, but I hope tossing the treats could help with this eventually.
Re: Question I posted on facebook site [quote author=charlie link=topic=6934.msg94267#msg94267 date=1405066836] If the distance isn't working Julie I would take him closer and then work on the distance with better treats. [/quote] I do not think the conclusion that the answer is to move closer to a distraction when a dog is not coping is generally applicable...
Re: Question I posted on facebook site [quote author=JulieT link=topic=6934.msg94263#msg94263 date=1405065849] With my Charlie, the decision I am trying to make is whether to take him close to off lead dogs - to the extent that I can't hope to get his attention with a tossed treat - and wait for him to calm down a bit (which I will then mark and reward). I haven't been doing this. I have been staying further away and trying to close the distance while staying in control - which isn't working. [/quote] Julie, have I misunderstood? :-\
Re: Question I posted on facebook site Helen - I'm not sure. What I meant by the advice not being generally applicable was this: Normally distance eases the power of a distraction. So if a dog is unable to cope with a distraction (by that I mean unable to respond, unable to take treats) is seems sensible to increase the distance. It would be an unusual thing to do, I think, to close the distance. The situation is going to get worse, not better. And the bad behaviour will be rehearsed. Of course, in the extreme, I can increase the distance and it will work. I can take Charlie so far away from other off lead dogs that he won't react. And I think this is the safest thing to do. But I think I am in an abnormal situation with my Charlie in that working with distances has become impractical. But I don't think it would be for most people (or for my Charlie with any other form of distraction - it works fine), and normally it would be the first thing to try. But moving closer to the distraction isn't necessarily going to work. It might make things worse. Charlie might fuss, whine, rehearse being in a state, and I still might not get his attention and all I will have done is given him the opportunity to practice being in a state around other off lead dogs. I'm going to try this with a trainer, in an arranged set up situation with another well trained dog, to see what happens before I try it in any other scenario.
Re: Question I posted on facebook site I haven't read all this thread yet, but have read the bit in blue, and when we first took Benson to one to one training this was the strategy he taught us to adopt, we were having problems at that stage when as a puppy he lost his dependence on us and enters that early teenage phase, with us it was about 6 months old and he would just take off..leaving us in his wake... :-[ What our trainer stressed was to throw the treats, and not hand them to him, we would call his name and the instant he looked up would click and treat....the treat (high value) would be thrown no more than 6 foot from us...we used jackpot treats too, some really, really high value and some just good ones, all high value though.
Re: Question I posted on facebook site Hi Julie. This advice is very good and is very like the advice given in 'Click for Calm' by Emma Parsons. The chapter about extinguishing cues to aggression in highly reactive dogs is very similar to what you've been told. This book shouldn't use the word aggression as it applies to all reactive dogs. Basically you start at the distance your dog can remain calm. C&T. Then move to the point where the dog starts to react. You are looking for the lowest point of excitement and you c&t. Continue to c&t this creates windows of calm which you can then mark as the behaviour you want. Then it's basically BAT. I think Karen Pryor's clicker website has extracts from the book. Whether its got that chapter I don't know. Just don't be put off by the word aggression. PS. I've been thinking Im not sure but I suppose the advice youve been given could be described as a very diluted form of flooding where you expose the dog to the trigger and just wait it out until you get a bit of calm (if I've read it right) . Whereas the advice in the book uses the c&t to try and create calm first then continue to reward it. Although it sounds strange to reward a reactive behaviour you are training the dog to reduce its reactivity by just rewarding for example a full body wag before it develops into excited lunging. Apart from the advice of waiting for calm and that the 'chemical triggers coursing through his blood can't last forever'which is like flooding the advice is pretty much BAT .'until the dog sees the distraction/s and either immediately focuses on you or you can easily get his attention that's BAT ( sorry too much to delete to do proper quote) I will be honest Julie the reason I keep adding to this is because although the person advising you may not intend this and I may have misunderstood and if I have I apologise profusely but I don't like the idea of flooding. From what I've read it is not the best/good way to address a behaviour issue. Obviously I've researched this from a nervous behaviour perspective and as a way of dealing with over excitement it might be a good training method I honestly don't know about that. Neither do I like giving such a strong opinion about something somebody else has suggested but flooding can cause more problems if not handled correctly. As I said before this is a very diluted version and there might be no negative effect on an excitable dog I just felt I needed to let you know. Waiting for the 'chemical triggers to stop on there own is putting a dog through unecessary stress. That's my opinion not necessarily right. I don't want to upset anybody. Sorry for waffling and I'm not sure I should post this because what do I know really :. I just know how I feel. X
Re: Question I posted on facebook site Ah, Jen, thank you. I knew you would recognise and correctly identify the central point here. Far from upsetting anyone, I think you have put your finger on why I've been turning this over. (Can you buy clicker gundog please? I want your input on the questionnaires about arousal). I have the book . You are right, it is a type of flooding. Which is why I'm not taking it lightly and why I made a moderately big deal over pointing out it wasn't standard advice. I have been thinking it over carefully (and the advice on facebook is not my main input into what I should do - my main input is a trainer that has observed my dog, and although has techniques that differs from my own, has thought about it, and is experienced, and has seen the impact of increasing distance on Charlie). The other factors are: I am not dealing with a fear response - and this is a big difference in this scenario although I do think the techniques for excitability and anxious reactions are very similar, I do think this is one where there are differences. I have already "flooded" Charlie with expose to other dogs (when on lead dogs were the problem) - in vets' waiting rooms. And I know the outcome was positive and resulted in calm in this scenario. I can control the situation precisely. I can, in a training set up with calm and controlled dogs, control the level of arousal and "test" it in these circumstances first. In a way, this is a less extreme version of what might inadvertently happen on an average walk (where we just run into other dogs). The exposure doesn't have to be prolonged. If I'm not happy, I can abandon it. What do you think?
Re: Question I posted on facebook site Jen's points are excellent ones and I also think you're sensible to manufacture a solution where you can control the variables and you also have help rather than try and do this out in the big, bad world. Wishing you lots and lots of luck
Re: Question I posted on facebook site [quote author=JulieT link=topic=6934.msg94361#msg94361 date=1405112344] I can control the situation precisely. I can, in a training set up with calm and controlled dogs, control the level of arousal and "test" it in these circumstances first. In a way, this is a less extreme version of what might inadvertently happen on an average walk (where we just run into other dogs). The exposure doesn't have to be prolonged. If I'm not happy, I can abandon it. What do you think? [/quote] That's the important bit. Controlling the situation. That's the bit I'm jealous of. It's very difficult to control strangers as weve discussed. You should be able to work out Charlie's threshold and see it improve. I (if you haven't already) would look for a calming signal before the trigger gets pushed. Then you have something to c&t and move forward with. The chapter I mentioned when you click a low reaction is for dogs that don't offer a calming signal. They react so much as soon as the trigger appears that to get through to them you have to start rewarding a low reaction and develop the calm that will appear when they respond to the c&t. I hope it works it should if you can get enough controlled sessions in. Glad I didn't say anything out of turn . x (Got the book the other day not had chance to read it properly yet will let you know. )
Re: Question I posted on facebook site Hi Julie I've been mulling this over and thinking how you can get the most out of these training set ups. I hope you don't mind? It may or may not be of use and I'm bound to state the obvious or something you've already thought of so sorry for that. First I'm going to play devils advocate. ??? [quote author=JulieT link=topic=6934.msg94361#msg94361 date=1405112344] I have already "flooded" Charlie with expose to other dogs (when on lead dogs were the problem) - in vets' waiting rooms. And I know the outcome was positive and resulted in calm in this scenario. [/quote] Has it worked ? Has Charlie learnt how to calm himself or has he just learnt how to behave in the vets waiting room ? It's my understanding that working to alter a behaviour like this is not about you learning how to control Charlie in a specific situation but about Charlie learning how to control Charlie in that situation. That's why flooding doesn't really work. If I was you I'd use the sessions like this. - Depending on the size of field I'd have the decoy dog in the middle and do ever decreasing circles around it. Or decoy dog at one end Charlie as far away as possible to start. - I would try and start at a point where the dog was of very little interest to Charlie then move nearer. Either circling around or a zig zag pattern towards the decoy. Never directly at it (calming signal ) - When Charlie locks on target stop. Wait for a calming signal or for him to disengage. Mark, move forward (no treat is necessary you mark the behaviour the reward is moving nearer. That's what Charlie wants not a treat but to get what he wants he needs to learn to keep calm. A treat will be a distraction.) - Continue this until you get to the other dog. Big reward is interaction with the decoy dog. - If at any point he goes over threshold stop and move away. You don't need to turn around just move into a bigger circle again so he can calm down then start again. The difference between this and flooding is at no point should those chemical triggers coursing through his blood be triggered. If they are you've moved forward too quick. It's basically an example of using functional reward or the Premack Principle Hope I might have been of some help I'm sure there are other ways of doing it but I know that way works. The first time might take awhile but it will be quicker the next and then the next. PS. I should have added once he's cracked the above I would do the same but have the decoy dog moving about in the middle. Once that is cracked parallel walking. Decoy dog and you walking towards each other. Lecture over .
Re: Question I posted on facebook site That's really kind Jen, of you to give this more thought. [quote author=Jen link=topic=6934.msg94415#msg94415 date=1405164684] [quote author=JulieT link=topic=6934.msg94361#msg94361 date=1405112344] I have already "flooded" Charlie with expose to other dogs (when on lead dogs were the problem) - in vets' waiting rooms. And I know the outcome was positive and resulted in calm in this scenario. [/quote] Has it worked ? Has Charlie learnt how to calm himself or has he just learnt how to behave in the vets waiting room ? [/quote] How would I tell the difference? And is there any practical difference when the methods used have been positive reinforcement? If punishment was used, there might be a difference, but that obviously is not what I've done. I'm a bit pushed for time right now, but I'll write more later on what Charlie does in the exercises you describe.
