Hi there, When Dexter arrived to us,his Breeders sent us a list of commands he was familiar with ,very basic sit,stay etc.We were told that the recall word they had used for him with was his name......I find that strange now ( although im sure there was a genuine reason for this)but we didn't then.We were warned about using his name indiscriminately around other commands ie don't say Sit Dexter,just say Sit,keep his name for his recall.....which we have tried very hard to do,( nigh on impossible though with my neice and nephew and other visitors) I Got The Right Start and The Grade One Guide from The Gun Dog club and worked through them which has got me to where we are now which is: Dexter will recall outside from dogs and distractions reliably if I have his eye contact before I call his name....if he sees something or someone and dashes away to it then I don't stand a chance,he is deaf to me.he still checks in on me though and I usually save the situation and get him to come back by turning around and walking/running in the other direction.he gets a piece of chicken then. I am reading Total Recall now as I need to get that last step in place,reliable recall from distractions when we are outside......my worry that I'm finally getting to is this......should I change the recall word ? I'd be gutted to have to as its the first time I'm doing any dog training and I feel that slowly and surely we are getting there ,I'm quite scared at the thought of starting all over again with a new command.But do you think it is sensible to have his name as his command word to continue through to this important stage?it doesn't seem to have impeded progress yet...although we are slow.Im even nervous about getting to this last stage in case he doesn't come back and I lose all the work we have done....which is why I wanted Total Recall to work through to check I am the best equipped i can be to not cock it up! I still treat a lot,if the park is empty I gamble him with kibble,if he is playing with a dog or having a pat,he gets a piece of chicken EVERY time Thanks,any thoughts much appreciated
Re: Recall Question If he thinks that "Dexter" means "come over here" then just keep using it as your recall word. Having said that, it is fairly easy to change cues if you have already established a spoken or visual (hand signal) cue. You would do it like this: Existing cue: "Dexter" [Dexter runs towards you. As he is running use your new cue...] New cue: "Come" [Dexter arrives. Big treat]. He will learn that this running towards the people thing has another name. Just wondering - why do you feel that it might be necessary to change the recall word at this stage? Sorry if I am being dense and have missed something ;D
Re: Recall Question I'm getting myself in a tangle really Rachael,that's why I posted. The Recall is one of the most important things if not THE most important thing I need to get right.Total Recall highlights choosing your word or your whistle signal and keeping it consistent and clear.Whilst we are careful about overusing the word Dexter.....I fear about its recall impact being diluted for eg we say Dexter!when we mean...stay way from the bin or Dexter!stop stealing the tea towel ......we mean Leave it!but in a busy day with an opportunistic labrador and other things going on,it's so natural for us to say his name.I've just done it now when the door bell went and he barked....I meant,Quiet!(but what did I say.....yep you guessed it!) Lack of experience makes my confidence very fragile training him,he is so good,mistakes are usually mine .I don't want to sabotage a good recall by using an ambiguous signal...but it feels hard to me to start again with another word and a blummin waste to be honest....we are getting there using his name..... I'm catching up on posts on here then Im off to look at 2 other training facilities and the classes they offer.Apart from the socialisation aspect ,the puppy class i went to was a waste of time,like everything in Dubai,you can do an Internet diploma and open your shop as a expert in a certain field......you have to pick through the chaff!Lets see,he's such a good boy and I feel a big responsibility to help him be as good as he can be....poor puppy of ours! Thanks for your reply
Re: Recall Question Ps on a totally silly note,he also lives his life thinking he is called Mr Popsicle,Mr Pops or Pops!But lets not bring that into the discussion
Re: Recall Question I don't think the name of the dog alone as a recall command would work in my multi dog household. I use the name followed by command word for everything. So it is Alice come, Murffi sit, Caddie down, Ziggy back etc. that seems to work pretty well. The whistle commands are universal for all my dogs, but because I only work one dog at a time I don't have to use the dog's name as well. Are you already using the whistle? It is quite easy to incorporate it into your recall training. I would start using it when you are calling Dexter for his food or play time or to be let out into the garden by giving your whistle command (several short pips) BEFORE you use the verbal cue, in your case Dexter. He will learn it in absolutely no time at all. 8) I do agree that the recall is very important and one of the corner stones of dog training, but I personally think that a stop whistle is just as if not more important and useful. If you have got brakes you have control. PS I too have a list of silly names for my gang. MurfSmurf, ZiggyMoo, CaddieWaddie, only Alice hasn't got a silly name. She is too much of a lady for that sort of thing.
Re: Recall Question If you are going to introduce a new cue by using the sequence: new cue ---> old cue ---> behaviour ---> reward ..then make sure you do it in a situation in which you are very confident of getting the behaviour in response to the old cue. You might have to go backwards a little bit to a less distracting situation to do that. Using the new cue before the old cue is definitely the accepted way, but the 'new cue after the old cue' approach works too. It's the way I do it as I initially teach almost everything with a hand signal only and then add a verbal cue once the behaviour is well established. I use the sequence: old cue (signal) ---> behaviour + instantly give new cue as behaviour is performed ---> reward I do it that way to avoid the risk of tainting the new cue with half hearted behaviours or refusals. But it's not the way most people would do it
Re: Recall Question Yes, interesting point in what sequence to teach a new cue. Just to give an example, when I teach the stop whistle the dog already knows the verbal command so I blow the stop whistle first and then use the verbal 'sit' immediately afterwards. In no time at all the dog hears the stop whistle and sits before I get the chance to get whistle out of mouth and say the word. That's the time when I can drop the verbal command because the dog now understands the new whistle command.
Re: Recall Question Thanks for the replies.....Rachael your sequence makes a lot more sense to me.I've just got home now and done what you say Heirdun,ie Dexter sit,Dexter lie down,Dexter bed and hes done it all....so Dexter Come might not be too impossible for him.....I'm going to start saying it as he comes back to me. .Im keen to use a whistle Heirdrun after what you've said to me before about it just cutting through all the white chat noise but Chris( who loves Dexter dearly but doesn't do any training whatsoever says he will feel stupid when we are walking in the residential parks ....)and we have got to be on the same page with this . I have looked for the ACME whistles here since you last mentioned using one for the stop signal....no joy but I know I can order them on line....I have no problem using one...don't give a hoot what anyone things as long as I have a safe dog.but we are going to spread confusion if we aren't doing the same thing......anyway I'm not past the intro of Total Recall yet so haven't started on the exercises to see how this all fits with the practicals.feel,like I've done this all the wrong way round and got in a muddle. Couldn't get over the other side of town today to the training places I wanted to visit with the time I had so that's first on the list tomorrow morning....
Re: Recall Question You know Charlie and I are less advanced, so no advice, but just in case it's helpful to know what others do - I use "Charlie, Charlie come". It helps me to have the 2 Charlies, first because it makes it sound different from "Charlie come" which gets used in the house by other members of the family and even guests and total strangers when it's completely optional for Charlie to "come". Second because I started calling Charlie to get his attention, then saying "come" and it still works a bit like that for me. So if he is running towards another dog, the first Charlie sort of makes him pause and then he turns round on the "Charlie come". Good luck, agree it's so important!
Re: Recall Question [quote author=Oberon link=topic=1928.msg15797#msg15797 date=1373280317] If you are going to introduce a new cue by using the sequence: new cue ---> old cue ---> behaviour ---> reward ..then make sure you do it in a situation in which you are very confident of getting the behaviour in response to the old cue. You might have to go backwards a little bit to a less distracting situation to do that. Using the new cue before the old cue is definitely the accepted way, but the 'new cue after the old cue' approach works too. It's the way I do it as I initially teach almost everything with a hand signal only and then add a verbal cue once the behaviour is well established. I use the sequence: old cue (signal) ---> behaviour + instantly give new cue as behaviour is performed ---> reward I do it that way to avoid the risk of tainting the new cue with half hearted behaviours or refusals. But it's not the way most people would do it [/quote] Using your sequence Rachael, how do you know though that the new cue is sinking in? And when and how would you phase out the old cue and just rely on the new cue?
Re: Recall Question [quote author=Dexter link=topic=1928.msg15818#msg15818 date=1373286024] Thanks for the replies.....Rachael your sequence makes a lot more sense to me.I've just got home now and done what you say Heirdun,ie Dexter sit,Dexter lie down,Dexter bed and hes done it all....so Dexter Come might not be too impossible for him.....I'm going to start saying it as he comes back to me. .Im keen to use a whistle Heirdrun after what you've said to me before about it just cutting through all the white chat noise but Chris( who loves Dexter dearly but doesn't do any training whatsoever says he will feel stupid when we are walking in the residential parks ....)and we have got to be on the same page with this . I have looked for the ACME whistles here since you last mentioned using one for the stop signal....no joy but I know I can order them on line....I have no problem using one...don't give a hoot what anyone things as long as I have a safe dog.but we are going to spread confusion if we aren't doing the same thing......anyway I'm not past the intro of Total Recall yet so haven't started on the exercises to see how this all fits with the practicals.feel,like I've done this all the wrong way round and got in a muddle. Couldn't get over the other side of town today to the training places I wanted to visit with the time I had so that's first on the list tomorrow morning.... [/quote] Tell your husband that a whistle is a lot cooler than shouting across the park. 8)
Re: Recall Question Heidrun I am so with you........and surely draws a lot less attention than big bellowing.....I think people would be intrigued but then that's another difference between us....I would be so proud someone asking me( especially if it was a perfect recall ) he'd just be embarrassed! :-[
Re: Recall Question Maybe a silent whistle? They are not totally silent but not as audible to humans as an acme whistle. A lot of my friends are spaniel field triallers and they use a silent whistle to keep the noise level when handling to a bare minimum. I personally don't like the feel of the steel against my teeth that's why I use a plastic acme whistle. But it might be a consideration.
Re: Recall Question Heidrun - so I'm introducing the whistle now for recall. I will use it everytime he happens to be running towards me for food, bringing his ball etc. But I was going to use a verbal recall command when out in the park/beach/common then use the whistle when he is coming in response to verbal command. At some point, just like when he learnt "come" I can use the whistle and expect him to come. But your post makes me think I've got something wrong here - if I use the whistle before I call come, will he learns what it means? Or do I drop the verbal command completely and go back to getting him to come another way and then use the whistle when he is coming towards me? Sorry to be a dunce, just want to get it right.
Re: Recall Question Julie, from puppy age I will use the whistle and my voice to call the puppy in. Some of my friends breed gundogs, labs and spaniels, and they will use something like a high pitched 'Pup, Pup, Pup' to call the puppies at feeding time once they have been weaned. That call is not dissimilar to my 'pip, pip, pip' on the whistle. All of my pups learned it very quickly. Take my Caddie for example, it took me ages to decide on her name, she was just 'Puppy' for a couple of weeks. By the time I named her she already understood the whistle recall. So all I needed to do now was call 'Caddie come' followed by the whistle and she would come galloping to me. Within a couple of days she understood that both things either the whistle call or me calling Caddie come meant run to mum and get a treat or dinner. If your puppy already understands the verbal command then I would simply use the whistle command just before the verbal call and in no time he will come to either one.
Re: Recall Question angela we use the whistle, my son was against using it saying he was embarrassed....i said to him you will be more embarrassed when you can't call him back to you.........i can call him back from most situations apart from when hes in play mode with another dog.......any tips heidrun,.......i am going to give that stop whistle a try , .....do i just whistle more pips ?
Re: Recall Question [quote author=heidrun link=topic=1928.msg15823#msg15823 date=1373287000] [quote author=Oberon link=topic=1928.msg15797#msg15797 date=1373280317]I use the sequence: old cue (signal) ---> behaviour + instantly give new cue as behaviour is performed ---> reward [/quote] Using your sequence Rachael, how do you know though that the new cue is sinking in? And when and how would you phase out the old cue and just rely on the new cue? [/quote] Good question, and one that I have only thought about since this thread was started! [quote author=heidrun link=topic=1928.msg15857#msg15857 date=1373301234] Take my Caddie for example, it took me ages to decide on her name, she was just 'Puppy' for a couple of weeks. By the time I named her she already understood the whistle recall. So all I needed to do now was call 'Caddie come' followed by the whistle and she would come galloping to me. Within a couple of days she understood that both things either the whistle call or me calling Caddie come meant run to mum and get a treat or dinner. [/quote] The way I do it is the way you describe it here. Use the old cue to initiate the behaviour, then label it with the new cue as the behaviour happens. As for how I'd know that it was safe to move to the new cue only - like I said - good question! My old cue is almost always a visual cue (hand signal). With an old visual cue and a new word cue I'd go for about 10 repetitions of 'old > behaviour + new' and if all's well use the word cue at the same time as the visual cue for about 10 repetitions (so, 'old + new > behaviour') then switch to the word cue followed instantly by the visual cue (so 'new > old > behaviour'). So I guess I gradually move the new cue backwards in time in the sequence till eventually it was coming first, and then I'd drop the old cue. You end up doing exactly what you'd do if you simply began with 'new cue then old cue' except that the new cue already has a pretty good link with the old cue and the behaviour in the dog's mind. I guess it just amounts to having a period of time when you are establishing an association, but the new word is not really functioning as a cue - or you can't be confident that it is. Anyway, that's how I'd do it when I had an established visual cue. That is logistically easy - moving your hand and speaking a word are independent of each other and you can easily move the order around. That's not so easy when your old cue and new cue both involve your mouth, unless the behaviour is a lengthy one (like a recall) and you can easily get in the new cue while the behaviour is actually happening. I guess that if I was wanting to change from an old word cue to a new word cue then I'd only use the 'old then new' approach if the behaviour was lengthy enough to let me get in the new word cue as the behaviour was happening. Otherwise, with a very short precision behaviour, I think it'd be too messy. I'd just go straight to using the new word cue first, followed by the old cue, but in a situation in which I knew I'd get the behaviour I wanted. Thinking about it, I'd actually never be in a situation in which I had not already taught a hand signal that I could use as a bridge to a new word. So, to teach a new word, I'd really just be dropping the old word, using the hand signal as the known and well established cue, then adding the new word. The goal would be to be able to use either the word or the hand signal or both. Sometimes I have had to change hand signals though. Then I'd make sure I had an established word to use as the bridge, or I'd just teach the behaviour again from scratch. It is much harder to change a hand signal than a word - they are so attentive to our movements... Trying to describe all that makes it sound like a dog's brekkie, and unnecessarily complex, heehee. But it's just how I was taught. The aim is really just to reduce the chance that you will spoil your shiny new cue with a refusal or blank look. But if you have trained properly in the first place and you are not pushing your dog too fast then you shouldn't be getting refusals or blank looks
Re: Recall Question I am still wondering whether there is any real advantage to using the 'old cue first' approach and why I have been doing it that way. As I mentioned, it's how I was taught. When I say that I mean that it was how I was taught to teach others when I did the instructors' course at our dog club (though I haven't done any instructing for years). When I taught, I took puppy classes. A lot of new puppy owners think that their puppies can speak English and are very quick to add a word/verbal cue when their puppy doesn't actually understand what they want. The end result is a puppy that ignores the verbal cue. So, to get around that, we used to emphasise the need to hold off on adding a verbal cue until the dog was responding to a hand signal (adapted from an initial hand movement with a lure). Then we'd get people to introduce the word by adding it after or as the dog had begun to give the behaviour in response to the hand signal. So, that approach, in hindsight, was really about trying to educate the humans to: - move away from luring and establish a proper signal so the dog is actually responding to a cue - only add a word once you are sure you will get the behaviour you are trying to cue We found that 'new word cue second' was the best way to go for the majority of people who were learning how to interact with a dog. It was more about training the people to take gradual steps in training their dog. And it was really about 'adding a word cue to an existing visual cue', not 'replacing an old word cue with a new word cue'. 'New cue first' is much more straightforward if your existing/old cue is well established.
Re: Recall Question It all went wrong this morning for me! Had an over excited puppy who suddenly decided he doesn't need to stay close to me after all, as he's a big boy now, and it's much more fun to roll in fox poo and then jump all over people heading for the golf club :-[. So we didn't get to start work with the recall whistle. Hmmm... back a few steps for me, I think.
