Remote training collars

I'm looking for opinions and advice. I have a friend who has used electronic remote training collars on his hunting dogs for many years. One of the features he uses most with his younger dogs is the beep. When the young dog is far afield, rather than shouting or whistling, he simply beeps the dog. Since the collar is right by the dog's ear, the dog hears it and turns to locate his owner, who then uses hand signals to direct the dog. He teaches the dog to look to him when beeped with lots of rewards and praise before he ever goes out in the field. In the very rare occasions necessary, he will use a mild shock (settings 1 or 2 out of 8 ) for a correction, but the beep is almost always enough. He taught his 6 month old GSP not to eat cow manure by first using his "leave it" command, then a beep, then finally a mild #1 shock (all in rapid succession). He had to do just a few times before the dog figured out that cow manure was not worth the hassle.

Have any of you ever used this type of collar? Any views you want to share? My initial thought was, "Use a shock collar on my dog?? Not a chance!", but my buddy's method and approach seem humane and reasonable... :-\ ???

 

Re: Remote training collars

Shock collars are available in the UK where the bulk of our members reside but I think they're much more commonly used in the US.

My personal opinion is that there are other, positive methods available to train the behaviours I want so I'll stick with those.

As a contrasting example I taught Riley a "leave it" which was strong enough to stop him eating horse poo at 6 months just by using food rewards.

 

Re: Remote training collars

I have no experience of them - but they receive a pretty negative press in the UK.

I do wonder about the term "mild shock". Really? If it didn't hurt, why is it different from the beep?

And what does the beep mean? Is it conditioned such that the dog knows a shock (pain) follows the beep? What do you mean the beep means "leave it"? (In your example). Do you mean it means stop doing that or you get shocked?

 

Re: Remote training collars

I had THOUGHT about using an audible tone collar on Lilly as it was suggested by my trainer - more to break the concentration in a chase - I am never quick enough to catch her before she goes :
I decided not to in the end as the whole training process was actually quite complex and involved keeping wearing the collar long term. As hoofing off after wildlife wasn't a daily occurrence (at that time : : : ) I decided not to explore it further.
I could see the rationale, but didn't think I was up to using it in the right way.
Hmmm....
Shock collar a definite no-no though. Can lead to your dog not returning as it expects punishment - can really muck up your dog.

 

Re: Remote training collars

If the beep has become associated with a shock (as in the horse poo eating scenario) then it will be an aversive (technically a 'positive punishment') to the dog even when the owner thinks he's just using it as an attention getting device. To be honest it sounds like it's being used in a bit of a confusing way for the dog here. It'd be like using a clicker but sometimes giving the dog a treat after the click and sometimes smacking it in the face - the dog never knows which is coming.

Just teaching the dog that the beep means 'look for me because I'm going to tell you something' - nothing wrong with that.

 

Re: Remote training collars

[quote author=Oberon link=topic=7359.msg102009#msg102009 date=1408139405]
Just teaching the dog that the beep means 'look for me because I'm going to tell you something' - nothing wrong with that.
[/quote]
That was what I was after.

 

Re: Remote training collars

The only 'training' collars I have experience of are vibrating ones we have used with a deaf dog in the kennels... Taught the same was as the beep I suppose; vibrate = look at me for command/hand signal

Shock collars, i feel, are barbaric and unnecessary if you train properly

 

Re: Remote training collars

Definite "NO" from me.

I can see a slippery slope. The dog doesn't respond to the bleep, so it gets shocked. It becomes inured to being shocked and escalating levels of shock become 'necessary'. Better not to start down that route.

 

Re: Remote training collars

Thanks, everyone! I think my initial instinct of "Not on my dog!" was the right one! I do like the idea of the beep; I wonder if there are collars that only beep and can't shock? No possibility of the slippery slope then. Google, here I come!

The "mild" shock really is mild. With great trepidation, I allowed my friend to shock me on the soft under part of my forearm (we did this at school where we both teach, under the fascinated gaze of about a dozen students!). Startling as all get out but not painful. Still, with 7 other levels to go, I could see the potential for severe misuse! He said he never puts the collar on the dog without first checking it on himself, but I don't know that everyone is as careful.

 

Re: Remote training collars

Lots of good thoughts here already. The only other thing I'd add is that it's a bit limiting to be relying on a collar for signals, as in thick cover or water you'd be wanting to take the collar off to avoid the chance of getting caught up, and it's exactly those kind of situations where you'd want to know you can communicate reliably with your dog.

 

Re: Remote training collars

Good point, Kath, especially since the unit is fairly bulky and could easily get caught on something. Once school starts again, I'll ask him about these various issues and see what he has to say. He seems to be a good guy and his dog is an energetic sweetie, but none of that means his training methods are "the best".

Sequeing off this... what kind of whistle do you recommend? I have an old so-called silent dog whistle, but I never feel like I know if it's loud enough..

 

Re: Remote training collars

I use an acme 212 - I'm not sure why, I think someone suggested it to me.

Why do you like the idea of a beep? it seems an awful faff with extra kit to me.

You have labradors don't you? Why would they ever be out of whistle range? I can imagine a remote beep might be useful for a dog that hunts a long way from its handler, but a labrador shouldn't do that. (I don't have experience of working, me and my boy just play at the gundog stuff).

 

Re: Remote training collars

I use an acme 210.5

 

Re: Remote training collars

At our training class the Labs go 300yds for a retrieve and picking up they have to range a fair distance. Not that one would use a remote collar for either of those situations!

I can see they could be useful if a dog was chasing a hare or a deer, could interrupt the intention - possibly if all else had failed!

I also use a 210.5. Does the 212 have a pee in it?

 

Re: Remote training collars

I wonder how far a dog can hear a whistle...

[quote author=Stacia link=topic=7359.msg102224#msg102224 date=1408220046]
Does the 212 have a pee in it?
[/quote]

No

 

Re: Remote training collars

My gundog trainer reckoned miles......no idea where that came from though

 

Re: Remote training collars

Retriever training in the USA is dominated by e-collar training. Very, very few successful USA trial dogs are trained without. Their trials have evolved to be very different from ours and are essentially long distance retrieving competitions. 300 yards would be a very short retrieve, and much of what they do involves water with multiple entries and re-entries

Arguably it would be very difficult to train dogs to do what they do without ecollars, but Nancy you may find it difficult to get support 'on the ground' for non-ecollar training in your area. Are you hoping to get involved in hunt tests?

 

Re: Remote training collars

I just ordered an Acme 210.5 and will see how Daisy responds to it. I think I liked the idea of the beep because it's so localized, right there by her ear. No shouting or piercing whistles going off in the neighborhood, but since I live on an isolated farm, I guess that wouldn't matter anyway! ;D I can do a very loud and piercing whistle with my fingers, but my hubby can't whistle at all. I'd like to find a way for him to call the dogs when I'm not around.

?

My older lab doesn't go far from me and her frisbee, but the younger Golden mix travels really far, really fast. His other half is border collie, which may explain that! Still, most of the time he responds quite well to my finger whistle - not so much when he's found something good to roll in...

I'm not sure exactly what I want to do with Daisy. Interesting to hear your comment about retriever training in the US. All of the gundog training sites I've visited do show pictures with most, if not all, the dogs wearing ecollars. The sites that offer training tips also talk about introducing the ecollar at the right time, in the right way, for the right reasons. I'd love to see Daisy out there, doing what she was bred to do, but I don't know that I have the resources (financial, time, temperament) to do it very effectively. :-\

There are several hunting dog training facilites relatively nearby, but all their trainings are done while the dog is boarded at their facility, which is not what I want to do. My obedience instructor would like me to try to take Daisy to obedience competitions, but I really like the outdoor work best. Maybe she and I will just be country ramblers?

 

Re: Remote training collars

Ok...I suspect this might be a dumb city dweller question..but

[quote author=editor link=topic=7359.msg102234#msg102234 date=1408221098]
300 yards would be a very short retrieve
[/quote]

From how far away can a person shoot something for a dog to retrieve?

I have experience of rifle ranges only (sorry :-[ - although I wasn't absolutely terrible ).

 

Re: Remote training collars

It isn't the range of the shot that determines the length of the retrieve if the bird is wounded. A wounded goose for example could go hundreds of yards. But I think its fair to say that isn't what determines the length of the retrieves in USA field trials, they have simply become long distance retrieving competitions. They do not take place under live shoot conditions as ours do. The retrieves are all set up, so that each dog is tested in the same way against the same retrieves.