OK, so we all know that when we are training our dogs we try to make it so that we are setting them up to succeed. How does this mesh with the possibility that a command, such as recall, might fail? Let me give a specific example. We are working our way through Total Recall but have not yet trained recall away from other dogs. However, we have, whilst on walks, recalled Harvey away from other dogs and, up until today, he has always responded. Today, he stopped, looked back at me, looked at the approaching dogs coming towards us, and I swear he grinned at me before running towards his intended playmates! : Now, after apologising to the other owner, I kept walking and once I'd reached a reasonable distance called Harvey again and this time he came (big bonus treats and lots of fuss). However, my query is this: If there is a possibility of the recall failing (because we haven't yet fully proofed it) should we simply not attempt to recall him?
Re: Setting dog up to fail? I think as long as the successes outnumber the failures you should make good progress. I think that it helps them learn what things mean if they do have a failure occasionally, plus they are going to try and test you! I know that Penny will often attempt a shortcut to get to the reward and she needs to know that the only was to get that reward is to do the thing properly. I don't think it's possible to set up a successful situation 100% of the time, no matter how carefully you try, there will always be something to test you. But you can endeavour to minimise occasions where failure might occur as much as possible.
Re: Setting dog up to fail? [quote author=UncleBob link=topic=5589.msg70792#msg70792 date=1398375361] However, my query is this: If there is a possibility of the recall failing (because we haven't yet fully proofed it) should we simply not attempt to recall him? [/quote] I think the answer is yes. If you are not confident your dog will come, and you can't be before you've proofed it, don't use your recall. Having said that...I spent ages jumping up and down in the park trying to get Charlie to come away from other dogs without using my recall. Used my recall, and he responded perfectly. : But, I had done an awful lot of proofing (in my ad hoc, slightly random way). Good luck with it!
Re: Setting dog up to fail? [quote author=JulieT link=topic=5589.msg70798#msg70798 date=1398376331] [quote author=UncleBob link=topic=5589.msg70792#msg70792 date=1398375361] However, my query is this: If there is a possibility of the recall failing (because we haven't yet fully proofed it) should we simply not attempt to recall him? [/quote] I think the answer is yes. If you are not confident your dog will come, and you can't be before you've proofed it, don't use your recall.[/quote] This is the way I approach it too. You do have to make a call based on what you know your dog can reliably achieve. But in an emergency I'd give it a try anyway. But even when they are really reliable in all sorts of situations you get the odd failure (well, I do ;D And my hubby definitely does : ;D ). Just make a mental note and don't push it so far next time. I use the 'running away' method as well and then give my cue and mark as he is belting back towards me.
Re: Setting dog up to fail? the recall was my biggest challenge, :'( i used to be in tears , i never thought in a million years that we would ever get it jasper is 16 month, i worked on his recall from him being 5 month old, without pippas total recall book i would still be chasing jasper, i went back to using a training lead when jasper was 11 month old, we worked and worked on the recall, i am happy to say we have now got a near perfect recall it will take time patients and persistences , you will get there, every time you get a good recall you will be punching the air i just say now come on this way
Re: Setting dog up to fail? Hi UB, if you are not sure about a successful recall in that situation try running in different directions, clapping, hide etc. I would not repeat my recall if the first one had failed. Sounds like your doing really well with Harvey. x
Re: Setting dog up to fail? My trick with getting recall from other dogs was not even to attempt it until she had had a bit of a charge around, then judge the moment when she was close enough to me and I had eye contact with her. Then I firmly said 'Poppy COME', turned on my heel and walked briskly away, without looking back. Took a bit of nerve, but worked for us! But all dogs are different. I think it's just important not to keep repeating your recall command while the dog is charging around ignoring you
Re: Setting dog up to fail? Tatze has really good recall - but she has had times when she's decided to do her own thing anyway. I can now tell when she's over-interested in whatever it is (usually something smelly) - and I just go and get her, no whistle. She's never far from me anyway. I did the 'hiding' thing suggested in Pippa's book so she doesn't ever go far before checking where I am. She will come away from dogs, no problem. But I have a 'window' when approaching dogs to get her back (eg, if they are on lead). The window is while she's still undecided herself. As soon as she's sure she's going up to them, she's 'deaf'. So I have to decide before she does.
Re: Setting dog up to fail? I feel your pain Unclebob as I suspect we may be in the same boat! So frustrating and makes me feel I must be the most uninteresting owner on the planet! : :-\...I chose our battles carefully...so if there are some interesting dogs, and Benson is zooming over full tilt....I wearily just start to plod in their direction, hoping fervently that owner is not too annoyed! Generally I find they are not. We are also working through the recall book, and there are some instances, when he is close enough, he has said hello and caught my eye he will recall quite well, then for the best recalls, or the trickier ones were he has come back, he gets high value treats. We use the whistle now and find that this is more effective than the verbal call. I use it once usually, but sometimes if he needs a little more encouragement I might add a verbal call or the whistle again, never more than twice though. I am just resigning myself to some tough months ahead, and kind of expecting as Benson hits his teens training to become a bit up and down for a while
Re: Setting dog up to fail? Thanks for the feedback. [quote author=Boogie link=topic=5589.msg70849#msg70849 date=1398411961] ... I have a 'window' when approaching dogs to get her back (eg, if they are on lead). The window is while she's still undecided herself. As soon as she's sure she's going up to them, she's 'deaf'. So I have to decide before she does. ...[/quote] This is exactly what we find - timing is everything
Re: Setting dog up to fail? [quote author=UncleBob link=topic=5589.msg71084#msg71084 date=1398500049] Thanks for the feedback. [quote author=Boogie link=topic=5589.msg70849#msg70849 date=1398411961] ... I have a 'window' when approaching dogs to get her back (eg, if they are on lead). The window is while she's still undecided herself. As soon as she's sure she's going up to them, she's 'deaf'. So I have to decide before she does. ...[/quote] This is exactly what we find - timing is everything [/quote] Yes, snap here too! I'm a recent convert to the fish-for-dogs treats though which have helped me get much closer to another dog without Merla departing. This morning she actually chose a sea-wrap over the chance to play with a little scampery off-lead Bichon Frise! The rest of the family think they smell terrible, but their protests are futile- I'm ordering more ;D ;D
Re: Setting dog up to fail? If i am unsure as to whether puzzle will come back to the whistle i will call her by voice as she responds much better to my voice than whistle and i can encourage her as much as i want when she is coming back and make it a good thing that she came back. If i have got it wrong with the whistle and ignores it i will use voice as voice never fails for her, probably because i can call her very high pitched and it travels a long way (much better than dads). I only ever whistle once and if she ignores, i don't whistle again. I also vary her rewards for coming back from other dogs sometimes i let go off to play with them other times she gets treats or to play with a toy, i find this helps her as she does not know what reward she will get, the best one to her is for me to let her go off and play with the dog(s) that i had just recalled her away from.
Re: Setting dog up to fail? [quote author=Merla link=topic=5589.msg71112#msg71112 date=1398511693] [quote author=UncleBob link=topic=5589.msg71084#msg71084 date=1398500049] Thanks for the feedback. [quote author=Boogie link=topic=5589.msg70849#msg70849 date=1398411961] ... I have a 'window' when approaching dogs to get her back (eg, if they are on lead). The window is while she's still undecided herself. As soon as she's sure she's going up to them, she's 'deaf'. So I have to decide before she does. ...[/quote] This is exactly what we find - timing is everything [/quote] Yep..there definately is a "moment" where there is a chance of bringing them back on a recall...and there is also that moment where they go completely deaf..and I feel I really don't have a hope! I do feel however we are making some progress Yes, snap here too! I'm a recent convert to the fish-for-dogs treats though which have helped me get much closer to another dog without Merla departing. This morning she actually chose a sea-wrap over the chance to play with a little scampery off-lead Bichon Frise! The rest of the family think they smell terrible, but their protests are futile- I'm ordering more ;D ;D [/quote]
