Sit-stay and down-stay -- Louis not responding to release cue

I am training stay with Louis. Starting with duration and making the stay implicit in the sit, ie. sit means sit and stay there until I release you.

This is what I am doing:

1. Sit (and C&T)

2. Wait about 5 seconds and another C&T for staying in the sit position

3. Wait another 5 seconds and then I give the release cue, wait 1 second, then take a step to the side.

He does respond when I take a step to the side, but we have done that like 20 times and he is not responding on the oral cue at all only, when I move to the side myself.

What else should I do?

I have started added a movement with my hand, signaling let go, before the oral cue, and that has made him move a few times but only like 50% of the times.

Maybe all this is normal? Just need to be more patient? Or should I start shaping the behaviour, so when he moves just a tiny bit on my visual hand cue, I C&T?

Also, I am in doubt if I should C&T during the duration of the stay? According to this, I should not http://www.clickertraining.com/node/3842
In theory, I see why only clicking on the events (the sit and the release) makes sense but informing the dog that he is doing good does also make sense. Maybe the best thing is to:
-- Give sit cue and C&T when he sits
-- Say good boy while he is staying and paying attention to me to tell him he is doing good
-- Give release cue and C&T if he responds

 

Re: Sit-stay and down-stay -- Louis not responding to release cue

I have been teaching the release cue by throwing a treat to the side as I say the word so Maisie then moves to get it. I do this when releasing from both a sit and a down. I then start to fade throwing the treat and just say the word. Hope that makes sense!

 

Re: Sit-stay and down-stay -- Louis not responding to release cue

[quote author=Fwhitt246 link=topic=10114.msg148060#msg148060 date=1425809796]
I have been teaching the release cue by throwing a treat to the side as I say the word so Maisie then moves to get it. I do this when releasing from both a sit and a down. I then start to fade throwing the treat and just say the word. Hope that makes sense!
[/quote]

Thanks, I also thought about doing that but I am also training him in not picking up food and other items unless allowed to do so -- and I am afraid that I might confuse him.

I see that your advice could work really well.

 

Re: Sit-stay and down-stay -- Louis not responding to release cue

He wants to stay in the sit in the hope of getting another C&T, plus he is acting like he doesn't understand the verbal release cue. Try:
- C&T only once, at the end of the 'stay'. Don't use the C&T as a reinforcer until the behaviour or behaviour chain is over
- reward him heavily for moving out of the 'stay' in response to your release cue. Use better rewards than the rewards he gets for staying
- use your verbal release cue and immediately jump about to make him move. Immediately. That will help to make the meaning of the verbal cue clearer to him
- never reinforce (reward) staying in the stay after you have said your release cue (just in case you have ever done this )

 

Re: Sit-stay and down-stay -- Louis not responding to release cue

[quote author=Oberon link=topic=10114.msg148062#msg148062 date=1425810046]
He wants to stay in the sit in the hope of getting another C&T, plus he is acting like he doesn't understand the verbal release cue. Try:
- C&T only once, at the end of the 'stay'. Don't use the C&T as a reinforcer until the behaviour or behaviour chain is over
- reward him heavily for moving out of the 'stay' in response to your release cue. Use better rewards than the rewards he gets for staying
- use your verbal release cue and immediately jump about to make him move. Immediately. That will help to make the meaning of the verbal cue clearer to him
- never reinforce (reward) staying in the stay after you have said your release cue (just in case you have ever done this )
[/quote]

Thanks a lot. So what you are saying is:
-- ask him to sit and C&T basic treat
-- once he has reached desired duration of the stay, then C&T basic treat
-- soon after this, give release cue, move immediately if he does not respond and then C&T premium treat and praise?

I am thinking now that I might even ot give him the C&T for reaching desired duration of stay?

 

Re: Sit-stay and down-stay -- Louis not responding to release cue

Since you want 'sit' to mean 'sit and don't move till I tell you' I would:
1.- ask him to sit (don't C&T - he knows the sit already)
2.- wait for the desired duration
3.- C&T using boring treat
4.- Verbal release cue combined with jumping about to elicit movement
5.- the second he moves immediately C&T using high value treat

You can definitely omit '3' sometimes, but I wouldn't omit it every time.

Once he starts to respond to the verbal release cue go back to using high value treats for step 3 or else use boring treats for rewarding the release (so make the stay reward and the release reward more equal in value).

IMPORTANT: Vary the length of time a lot. Make sure you sometimes ask for, and reward, very short sits of 1 or 2 seconds. Keep him guessing so he can't predict how long it'll be, and also make sure it is not always long and boring. Make most of them short, under 10 seconds

 

Re: Sit-stay and down-stay -- Louis not responding to release cue

[quote author=Oberon link=topic=10114.msg148064#msg148064 date=1425811084]
Since you want 'sit' to mean 'sit and don't move till I tell you' I would:
1.- ask him to sit (don't C&T - he knows the sit already)
2.- wait for the desired duration
3.- C&T using boring treat
4.- Verbal release cue combined with jumping about to elicit movement
5.- the second he moves immediately C&T using high value treat

You can definitely omit '3' sometimes, but I wouldn't omit it every time.

Once he starts to respond to the verbal release cue go back to using high value treats for step 3 or else use boring treats for rewarding the release (so make the stay reward and the release reward more equal in value).

IMPORTANT: Vary the length of time a lot. Make sure you sometimes ask for, and reward, very short sits of 1 or 2 seconds. Keep him guessing so he can't predict how long it'll be, and also make sure it is not always long and boring. Make most of them short, under 10 seconds
[/quote]

Awesome, very useful. How many repetitions should I expect it to take before he starts responding to release cue? I guess I have now done about 40-50 of releases over the last days and not much response so far (apart from probably where I have been lucky and/or created it with my hand gesture)

 

Re: Sit-stay and down-stay -- Louis not responding to release cue

Well, it is hard to say how many it'll take, but I'd expect to be getting the start of a response fairly quickly (maybe 4 to 6 tries?) as long as the dog is very motivated to work out and try the behaviour I want (and as long as something else is not more rewarding) and as long as I was doing all I could to help the dog give me the behaviour I want (being clear, consistent etc).

I'd say that if you've tried 50-60 goes and he hasn't responded to the verbal cue he:
- finds sitting more rewarding
- finds that the release is not rewarding enough
- thinks that your verbal cue means nothing or else means 'don't move' and thinks that only the sidestep means 'move'

Make sure you elicit movement the millisecond after you use your verbal cue. To make him move use a different body movement to the sidestep - jump about or wave your arms or throw a toy. As quickly as you can start to fade out the jumping/waving/toy so you rely less on your body and more on your voice.

And......Definitely choose a new verbal cue (the old one is broken now, I'm afraid )

 

Re: Sit-stay and down-stay -- Louis not responding to release cue

[quote author=Oberon link=topic=10114.msg148074#msg148074 date=1425813914]
Well, it is hard to say how many it'll take, but I'd expect to be getting the start of a response fairly quickly (maybe 4 to 6 tries?) as long as the dog is very motivated to work out and try the behaviour I want (and as long as something else is not more rewarding) and as long as I was doing all I could to help the dog give me the behaviour I want (being clear, consistent etc).

I'd say that if you've tried 50-60 goes and he hasn't responded to the verbal cue he:
- finds sitting more rewarding
- finds that the release is not rewarding enough
- thinks that your verbal cue means nothing or else means 'don't move' and thinks that only the sidestep means 'move'

Make sure you elicit movement the millisecond after you use your verbal cue. To make him move use a different body movement to the sidestep - jump about or wave your arms or throw a toy. As quickly as you can start to fade out the jumping/waving/toy so you rely less on your body and more on your voice.

And......Definitely choose a new verbal cue (the old one is broken now, I'm afraid )
[/quote]

Yeah, seems like I have to choose a new verbal cue. He did start to respond to the release cue when I tried your approach but I think it was more a trial and error thing from his side than responding to the cue. I guess trial and error from his side is normal way of learning but after having heard the word 50 times he probably will have no clue what it means if I continue to use it.

Would best practice have been to start using the release cue already when he was 8 weeks old and learning to sit? He would probably not understand anything about sit-stay release but at least he might be able to associate better the release cue with his action of moving away from a sit, if I gave it as he was moving away from the sit position as a very small puppy?

I suppose the whole sit thing can be a bit confusing to him because a large part of his life sit meant sit until he decided not to sit anymore, and now it suddenly means sit until I decides he should not sit anymore.

 

Re: Sit-stay and down-stay -- Louis not responding to release cue

I think it's really important to teach the release cue at the same time as the actual behaviour. I wasn't very consistent with this and am revisiting it now. I find that now I have a stronger release, I have a stronger behaviour. I do the odd C&T for the behaviour itself, but right now focussing on C&Ting the release is giving me good results.

I also changed my release cue. I started off saying "free", but that didn't work at all for me. Partly because I have a bit of a speech impediment, so saying the "fr" sound is a bit tricky. This meant that I was uncomfortable saying it and therefore didn't put much happiness into the word. As soon as I changed to "OK then!", I became a lot chirpier and animated, which really helped the release. I also move my hands a bit when I say it, in a bit of an upwards direction, as if I was starting to do a clap. I'm doing some proofing now so that they don't release on other movements that aren't clear cues, for example if I raise one arm above my head, or do jumping jacks.

 

Re: Sit-stay and down-stay -- Louis not responding to release cue

I'm so impressed with you guys. You're working so hard it puts me to shame . I have however recently had success with her sitting perfectly a metre away while the dishwasher is open to prevent licking of scabby plates. She waits nicely but stay is a subtle difference we're yet to conquer. Amber did take a ridiculous amount of time just to learn 'down' as a position - I think it must be too calm and boring for her. I will have to tell Amber she's being shown up by the younger pups and we'll put in some extra work haha. Now she's one agility is going to be on the agenda and I think running around like a lunatic is much more our style haha. Keep up the hard work as you are inspiring me to expect more from the ginger hooligan!!

 

Re: Sit-stay and down-stay -- Louis not responding to release cue

Willow and Shadow both struggled getting the "down" position. It took a lot of luring and a LOT of patience before they assumed the position. It's still one of their weakest things, but I don't practice it much at the moment because I feel mean asking them to go into a down on the snow!

 

Re: Sit-stay and down-stay -- Louis not responding to release cue

Interesting thread thanks, Bella won't sit for very long but she is only 5 months and I was doing the stream of c and t then waiting for a bit and c and t so it's unpredictable but If I step back she gets up... I'll try the above ;D

 

Re: Sit-stay and down-stay -- Louis not responding to release cue

When you start wanting to move around with your dog in a sit/stay, you need to do it slowly. Start off by picking one foot up an inch off the floor (if this is too much, just shift your weight to one foot without lifting the other). Then the next step would be to put it back behind you without putting any weight on it, the next step transfer your weight, the next step, move the other foot to join it etc etc. Eventually build up to two steps, then three. Don't just make it progressively harder each time; mix it up by putting a really easy thing in there, so C&Ting immediately on the sit, for example or, when she can sit with you ten paces away, throw in a couple where you only go one pace away.

You can add complexity, then, by starting to turn your back on her to walk away, rather than just backing up. Also, starting to go out of sight - again, take it slowly by just putting one foot through the door, then a leg etc, until you're completely gone for a fraction of a second, and then gradually build duration. Come back to her and C&T each time you move on a task, obviously.

 

Re: Sit-stay and down-stay -- Louis not responding to release cue

[quote author=Oberon link=topic=10114.msg148074#msg148074 date=1425813914]
Well, it is hard to say how many it'll take, but I'd expect to be getting the start of a response fairly quickly (maybe 4 to 6 tries?) as long as the dog is very motivated to work out and try the behaviour I want (and as long as something else is not more rewarding) and as long as I was doing all I could to help the dog give me the behaviour I want (being clear, consistent etc).

I'd say that if you've tried 50-60 goes and he hasn't responded to the verbal cue he:
- finds sitting more rewarding
- finds that the release is not rewarding enough
- thinks that your verbal cue means nothing or else means 'don't move' and thinks that only the sidestep means 'move'

Make sure you elicit movement the millisecond after you use your verbal cue. To make him move use a different body movement to the sidestep - jump about or wave your arms or throw a toy. As quickly as you can start to fade out the jumping/waving/toy so you rely less on your body and more on your voice.

And......Definitely choose a new verbal cue (the old one is broken now, I'm afraid )
[/quote]

Now it works He responded to the (new) release cue with me several times and also when my mom gave it. Tried it inside and also in the small park that was quiet this afternoon.

This is what I am doing

1. Ask him to sit (I C&Ted sometimes, sometimes not - just to keep the C&T loaded before using it on the release cue, I will fade it eventually)

2. Waited between 2-10 seconds then gave the release cue FREE. First couple of times of course no reaction from him so immediately moved a step back and he followed. Then after successful responses to the visual cue, I just gave the free command and he got up. Did it a number of times and it works well.

This is quite different from the way I had originally planned to train stay; I originally wanted to give a stay command both orally and visually -- but figured out I would end up confused with having to give sit, stay, C&T, release, C&T that I would confuse Louis as well. Now I am keeping it simple and not even C&Ting during the stay but just looking at him, smiling and saying good boy. Given that he had some trouble coming out of the sit, I suppose it is also helpful not to reinforce the sit with C&T but instead have him focus on when the release cue comes.

Next steps will be to add duration, then distance, then distractions and then fade rewards - good sequence?

Thanks again.

 

Re: Sit-stay and down-stay -- Louis not responding to release cue

That's fantastic, well done

Do continue to regularly reinforce (C&T) the end of the sit so that continuing to sit is still rewarding (you don't want the release to be the only rewarding part).

I would increase duration, distance and distraction in that order, yes. But when you've built up duration and are going to switch to increase distance, reduce duration at first. Build up the distance a bit then, at that distance, again build up duration. Basically, when we make something harder on one dimension we go back to making everything easier on every other dimension, then build up again. Also, never make anything harder and harder and harder. Always 'yo-yo' up and down so you're still doing a lot of easier ones, while you gradually stretch the overall average. So, to increase durations do a:
- 1 second stay
- 2 seconds
- 1 second
- 3 seconds
- 2 seconds
- 4 seconds
- 1 second
- 3 seconds
- 5 seconds

Gradually build up but keep going back to easier ones in between

 

Re: Sit-stay and down-stay -- Louis not responding to release cue

A video

Improvement suggestions very welcome

http://youtu.be/rot4l2lZP6Y

 

Re: Sit-stay and down-stay -- Louis not responding to release cue

Looking good! I'd try to reduce using the C&T for the initial sit (just do it occasionally) and instead start C&Ting when he has sat for the time you want. Then release, and C&T for that too (not every time, just enough to maintain it).

Also, as a test of his understanding of the verbal release cue, I'd try stopping the movement that you're doing (kind of a sway or shimmy to the side) after you say your release cue. Say your cue and stay completely still to see if he really knows the verbal cue

 

Re: Sit-stay and down-stay -- Louis not responding to release cue

You have a very nice training manner, very gentle.

 

Re: Sit-stay and down-stay -- Louis not responding to release cue

[quote author=snowbunny link=topic=10114.msg148127#msg148127 date=1425832716]
When you start wanting to move around with your dog in a sit/stay, you need to do it slowly. Start off by picking one foot up an inch off the floor (if this is too much, just shift your weight to one foot without lifting the other). Then the next step would be to put it back behind you without putting any weight on it, the next step transfer your weight, the next step, move the other foot to join it etc etc. Eventually build up to two steps, then three. Don't just make it progressively harder each time; mix it up by putting a really easy thing in there, so C&Ting immediately on the sit, for example or, when she can sit with you ten paces away, throw in a couple where you only go one pace away.

You can add complexity, then, by starting to turn your back on her to walk away, rather than just backing up. Also, starting to go out of sight - again, take it slowly by just putting one foot through the door, then a leg etc, until you're completely gone for a fraction of a second, and then gradually build duration. Come back to her and C&T each time you move on a task, obviously.
[/quote]

Thanks I tried this this morning and she did stay if I moved very slowly so will keep building it up and she's getting the release cue . How longs realistic for a 5 month old pup to stay? 5-10 seconds??