Sit stay I think it's clicked !

Discussion in 'Clicker Training' started by Jen, Oct 24, 2013.

  1. Jen

    Jen Registered Users

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    I've been clicker training the sit stay for 6 days now last night we had a break through ! ;D

    I didnt really need to train the sit bit. They've been sitting on command since being little pups unfortunately not staying. ::) . I did train the sit with hand movements though (to the point were i forgot i could say sit and they would DUH :eek: )and then the release cue which they'd got within a couple of days. I've been proofing the release since taking it slowly.

    Last night at tea time I went to get them out of their pen, put up pop hole cover ( no point leaving it up in day last about 10 seconds) and put their extra bed blankets in. I tell them to sit in pen while I'm doing their bed. When I turn around they are usually stood at the kennel door debating whether to come in or not. Last night when turned around they were sat where I'd left them!!! C&T, C&T, C&T ;D

    This morning has gone really well too. Done lots of proofing. Different distances, dropping the ball, picking up the ball, dropping it to the side at arms length alsorts and only once did I have to replace Scout. At one point Scout was being bothered by a fly didn't move and Scott thought about moving to get a drink but stopped himself !!! I release cued so he could go and get one. All of this outside with all the distractions that comes with being outdoors.

    Still a lot of proofing to do I know especially meal times. Scout finds it very difficult to keep his bottom on the floor too excited but at least I know it's working.

    Yippee ;D ;D ;D

    Jen
     
  2. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Re: Sit stay I think it's clicked !

    Well done those boys! (And Jen :) :)).
     
  3. Oberon

    Oberon Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    Re: Sit stay I think it's clicked !

    Sounds great!!!!! :D

    Just one thing:
    I'm sure you didn't mean this literally, but just do one Click per dog per 'exercise'. You can give as much food as you want as the 'Treat' part though :)
     
  4. Alice

    Alice Registered Users

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    Re: Sit stay I think it's clicked !

    Isn't it good when things come together? Brilliant work.
    Alice
     
  5. Jen

    Jen Registered Users

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    Re: Sit stay I think it's clicked !

    It does feel really good when something works especially when you can see the improvement so quickly. :D

    I'm probably imagining it but since the sit stay has clicked they seem better all round. For example when we come in at tea time they usually bomb about while I get coat off etc because they know getting fed. For the last few days they've still dashed about a bit but then sit as soon as I tell them waiting for the release cue !!!

    The big test will be when I test it against the excitement of the OH appearing!!! Apparently he's very exciting dont you know. ;D more proofing before that though.

    No Racheal I didn't C&T x3 but while on the subject on the kikopup vid she C&T a lot to reinforce the sit. Do you only do that for the initial learning bit then? I'm finding clicker training easier but some bits bit confusing. ???
     
  6. Oberon

    Oberon Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    Re: Sit stay I think it's clicked !

    Do you mean she did a lot of repetitions like: sit, click, treat. sit, click, treat. sit, click, treat. sit, click, treat.

    You do tend to do more of those 'sets' of repetitions when they're learning something new. I find that it's important to judge when to stop. You can do too many and the dog gets bored. You want to end on a win - that might be a great example of a sit, or having made noticeable (even if small) progress in the length of the sit. You also want to end while the dog is still keen and interested.

    There is never anything wrong with going back to a more basic stage for a 'refresher' and confidence-building session now and then. It doesn't all have to be 'full steam ahead' :)
     
  7. Jen

    Jen Registered Users

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    Re: Sit stay I think it's clicked !

    Hi Rachael

    I was going to watch the kikopup video again today but didn't get chance but I'm sure she tells the dog to sit then C&T quickly a lot of times to reinforce the sit or to let the dog know staying sat is what she wants. ???

    I have been trying to train in short chunks if you like. So I vary the release cue reinforcement, different duration,moving different distances, different distractions then throw the ball a bit or let them have a race around as a break from it then do a bit more but I always stop on a positive.

    The thing I've found with the sit stay is we can practice it anywhere through out the day which makes it easier. I don't want to blow it now they've done so well. ::)

    Thanks for your help Rachael I do need advice it's still new to me. :eek:

    Jen
     
  8. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Re: Sit stay I think it's clicked !

    [quote author=Jen link=topic=3024.msg32183#msg32183 date=1382732368]

    I was going to watch the kikopup video again today but didn't get chance but I'm sure she tells the dog to sit then C&T quickly a lot of times to reinforce the sit or to let the dog know staying sat is what she wants. ???

    [/quote]

    She does, at first, then makes the time between clicks longer as the dog knows what is required - it is not clear from the video whether you keep doing the "rapid fire" as she calls it on the next training sessions after the initial one for reinforcing the sit-stay. I go back to the "rapid fire" C&T for new, and more difficult locations (vet's waiting room, sit and stay at the top of the beach while dogs are playing etc) and then draw out the C&Ts as Charlie begins to be able to cope. I don't return to the "rapid fire" for the same thing again unless Charlie has forgotten he knows what to do. Dunno whether this is right, it works fine though.

    Pippa commented on the continuous C&T in this thread here:

    http://www.thelabradorsite.com/forums/index.php/topic,2806.msg29296.html#msg29296
     
  9. Jen

    Jen Registered Users

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    Re: Sit stay I think it's clicked !

    Thanks Julie that's a big help. ;D

    From reading the thread I do it the same as you. (I think ???)

    I've started to only occasionally C&T for the initial sit as theyve known that command a long time unless like you said I'm in a new location or trying to up the anti on the release cue reinforcement. Is that right though? I suppose eventually the idea is to not need C&T at all. ???

    Interesting morning I got the OH to do some clicker sit stay!!!!!!! ::)

    He has no control over the dogs at all and it's really starting to annoy me. When they were pups jumping all over him etc I told him he needed to get some control or they'd still be doing it fully grown. Guess who was right. :mad: the annoying thing is they'll be good all day, done well with training then he gets home and they go nuts!!!!! :mad: I end up telling them off. :(

    I thought if he could get some control with the sit stay it might help all round (he's not interested in training just wants to throw a ball). After the initial excitement they did well. Kept it short and very simple. I then did some harder release cue reinforcement and considering the OH was there they did well. I only had to replace them once.

    All in all not bad.

    Thanks for the help with this clicker stuff. Sorry if I ask obvious questions. It works so I want to get it right. :eek:

    Jen
     
  10. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Re: Sit stay I think it's clicked !

    It's good stuff, alright. I think I was a bit casual with it for a long time, a bit random really, and it still worked ok. I've only got a bit more serious about it since trying to do the clicker retrieve.

    I find it a bit frustrating with the videos and stuff because they don't ever show a dog that's not co-operating!
     
  11. Jen

    Jen Registered Users

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    Re: Sit stay I think it's clicked !

    I know what you mean. The dogs are or seem perfect. The way the collie watches her on the sit stay vid is amazing. Mine will follow my hand and watch me as long as nothing even just slightly more interesting happens. ::)

    I find that with a lot of training books, videos etc they tell you the steps to take to achieve the desired result and they might mention the most obvious things that could go wrong but you can bet mine will find away that's never been thought of before. ;D
     
  12. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Re: Sit stay I think it's clicked !

    [quote author=Jen link=topic=3024.msg32218#msg32218 date=1382785204]
    I know what you mean. The dogs are or seem perfect. The way the collie watches her on the sit stay vid is amazing.
    [/quote]

    LOL! I end up shouting at the screen "I'd like to see you have Charlie do that!". How to look good while clicker training: start with a trained dog!

    Anyway, it's mega helpful. Off to go to a bit more clicker retrieve - it's getting him to deliver to hand while I'm standing up today. Plus hold while I take the dummy rather than sort of dropping it into my hand. But I'll see how I get on with the standing up bit first. Oh the heady heights we've reached! I'm going to try standing up!!! ;D ;D ;D
     
  13. charlie

    charlie Registered Users

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    Re: Sit stay I think it's clicked !

    Hi, I would like to see dogs other than Collies in these training videos, how about a naughty difficult dog, fed up seeing oh so perfect dogs and owners :( Even I could train a Collie ;)
     
  14. Jen

    Jen Registered Users

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    Re: Sit stay I think it's clicked !

    Collies do give the impression they are easy to train.

    They had one man and his dog contestants on country file last week. One sheep dog was the same age as mine!!!!! I kept telling my two watch the telly look what that dog can do you'd just race around like nutters. They weren't impressed or interested funnily enough. ::)

    To be honest I don't think I'd want them to bring me a herd of sheep not that keen on sheep. Having said that I'm not that keen on dead birds either. Oops perhaps shouldn't have admitted that. ;)
     
  15. Karen

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    Re: Sit stay I think it's clicked !

    Oh Jen, just outed yourself there!! ;)
     
  16. Jen

    Jen Registered Users

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    Re: Sit stay I think it's clicked !

    Help ! :(

    I'm now wondering if I'm doing too much or trying to advance too quick.

    All week they've been progressing really well until today. 27 steps back it feels like although it's probably not really that bad. I don't think the wind helps. They've always been destracted easily on windy days!! Seems to get them wound up.

    I do a couple of outdoor sessions with them a day. Just a few exercises with breaks inbetween to play, fetch etc.

    The thing I'm a bit confused about is there are many times during the day when you tell a dog to sit. Do I now expect the sit stay no moving until released every time or is it too soon? If it is too soon at what point do I expect it. I know that's a ' how long is a piece of string' type question. ::)

    I don't want to push them too much and ruin what they've done so far. I'm trying to be careful to not keep making things harder . If too much retrieving can make them bored of retrieving how about the sit stay ? ???
     
  17. Oberon

    Oberon Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    Re: Sit stay I think it's clicked !

    You'd be expecting a sit until released or given another cue - every time you ask for a sit. Otherwise the dogs will be confused. You always expect it, even if all you can manage is a 2 second sit with you 30cm away. Build up the duration gradually, and also build up the distance you are away gradually. Don't try to build up both at once (e.g. If you move further away, make it a shorter length of time, and if it's for longer or in a more distracting environment then stand closer).

    The sit stay is not an 'active' exercise so you don't have to worry quite so much about ruining their desire and enthusiasm for it. But you can still push your dog too far so they decide to move of their own accord...whether out of boredom or seeing something more exciting.

    Don't worry about a bad day - we all have them! Obi was very distracted at obedience classes yesterday and so I just expected less and did more short, fun things.
     
  18. Jen

    Jen Registered Users

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    Re: Sit stay I think it's clicked !

    Thanks Rachael I really appreciate your help. :D

    I have been expecting sit until released but just wanted to check.

    I feel better now I know I'm not pushing it too much and I will be careful building up duration, distance etc.

    Thank you

    Jen
     
  19. JulieT

    JulieT Registered Users

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    Re: Sit stay I think it's clicked !

    Can I ask a related question? Don't want to hijack the thread but it is a similar question...

    Can you do too many recalls? I sometimes think I do too many (I'm a bit obsessed about recall practice). Today, I thought Charlie looked a bit "just as I get 30m away and start following an interesting smell there goes that "b****y whistle again....".
     
  20. Oberon

    Oberon Supporting Member Forum Supporter

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    Re: Sit stay I think it's clicked !

    I think that all walks should involve quite a few recalls as long as:
    - Most recalls are followed by something good e.g. good treat and a definitely a release to go off running again
    - You often recall your dog when they have nothing better to do, so they do not learn that recalls only ever come when they are about to do something exciting (follow a scent, jump in the water, say hi to another dog...) and are therefore a real bummer. Don't fall into the trap of only recalling when you need it to get them away from something - they will learn that the recall cue means they should look around for the exciting thing that you have just noticed or that recalls mean the end of all the fun. Most of your recalls should be when you don't need it but your dog is happy to give it anyway because it is the best offer going. Recall when your dog is just dawdling along or when they have finished with a sniff, or when they are looking at you already. Vary your behaviour - run away or even lie down on the ground (a lot of dogs find this fascinating).

    People differ on this but I always (for the dog's entire life) give a treat for a recall. Just as the retrieve cue should be a promise of an object to fine (as Pippa and Heidrun have said), a recall cue should be a promise of something good too.
     

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