(Some) Stupid Nasty Neutered Male Dogs (lots are lovely too :-) )

I wonder if this antipathy some neutered males have for my intact boy, all intact boys, will change when Oban is neutered? We took a usual walk, met a new dog. A BIG neutered yellow Lab who decided he did not like Oban. There was just noise and scuffling because Oban will not engage. He literally turns the other cheek and swings his butt end around and averts his head.

Since Oban is eight I wonder how this will change when he is neutered? Will he become one of the nasty, neutered males? I'm kind of thinking he might since he now is unfriendly to intact males he doesn't know. But even with them he won't fight unless the dogs are forced together. I'm guessing I'll still have to watch out for them.

The neutered males are a particular problem right now. Most neutered males are fine and we have some good doggy friends among them. The nasty ones are hard to predict. Their owners usually don't know that they are like that because most dogs are neutered here, they might never have met an intact male before. And usually the sniff greeting takes place before they react and most greetings are followed by the dogs going their separate ways or they decide they like each other and play. Though sometimes I can see some stiff leggedness going on, as I did this morning. Oban himself seems always to be taken by surprise when a dog he has no interest in turns on him. A couple of other times a neutered male has targeted Oban he wasn't even looking at or near the dog. Once we'd even been walking together.

I will have to watch and see I guess. I don't suppose anyone here has had their dog neutered late and seen any changes like this?

 

My four year old lad is castrated and is the absolute opposite of nasty , in fact he is quite subservient and I have yet to hear him growl .

 

You won't have experienced this then, since your boy is also neutered (when?) he won't be targeted by neutered males who don't like intact males. Your boy is ok with intact males? Most we meet are, the others are a concern.

 

What about intact males who hate neutered ones....?? Surely this is more of an actual problem with the individual dog as opposed to whether they have their knackers or not?

 

I think this issue, framed as the title of the post suggests, does have the potential to raise the hackles of those who have neutered dogs - I'm sure Snowshoe didn't mean to cause offense to the huge number of owners on the forum who have delightful, friendly, neutered male dogs.

However, there is a point here. I personally believe that it quite a widespread and common problem that neutered male dogs tend to react to intact male dogs. Many daycare centres and some dog walkers won't take intact dogs because of this problem - since we live in a world where most dogs are neutered, it has become common to exclude the smallest group, the intact dog. But it really is the case that a lot of neutered dogs are reactive to intact dogs.

That doesn't mean that every neutered dog is reactive to intact dogs, far from it. But it is really quite common and most owners of intact dogs will have experienced this, particularly with an intact male between the ages of about 6 months and 2 years old, when their testosterone is sky high.

 

Apparently not and in my experience not. I was surprised to read of this problem when Oban was puppy and was doubtful but it has indeed come to pass. I watch every new dog meeting carefully because, while not the norm, it does happen frequently enough I worry a neutered male might be one who doesn't like intact males.

I wonder if it's something like the puppy license we all have read of? Where a male dog in puberty has testosterone levels as much as seven times higher what they will be in adulthood and all dogs might think he needs to be put in his place but especially intact males. So then, later, to a neutered male all intact males smell like they have way too much testosterone because it's more than they have themselves? This is a guess on my part but it would help explain why intact males targeting neutered males is not as much of a problem because the neutered male does not smell nearly as male.

Oban will not fight one of these neutered males. It's as if they smell so much less than a male he doesn't recognize them as being male dogs at all. Kind of snobbish of him, really. I don't know if all intact males targeted by nasty neutered males are the same as mine. Oban did fight with two such dogs, both times he was cornered (one tried to jump into my car to get at Oban) and both had only very recently been neutered.

Jo, you pose your statement as a question so I take it you have not experienced your neutered male being targeted by an intact male? I don't say it never happens, but in my readings and my experience it's not the norm.

 

Julie T, I deliberately made the title provocative in hopes of attracting some readers. But as I say myself in the OP it's not most neutered dogs and I wonder if my own dog might become one of these nasty ones. Plus, folks, you might have one and not know it yet. Several owners of such nasty dogs have said to me, "He's never done that before." And it always turns out Oban is the first intact male they've met.

And I posed a question, did anyone neuter late and see a change, either as the recipient or the one being nasty?

 

Well, Snowshoe, a provocative title might do more than attract readers. It might annoy some people too. So it's good you've made it clear that you think most neutered dogs are not nasty.

 

I went back to see if I could edit the title, because there are people who might read the title and not the body of the post, but I can only edit the post.

 

Done it for you.

You do have a serious point here, I do recognise the issue you raise.

In terms of your question, about whether Oban will also become reactive to intact dogs - I think it depends why this tends to happen. There could be many reasons:

It's the experience of the op itself that increases general reactivity (Oban might be affected)

(There is some evidence that reactivity in general increases, but the evidence is mixed, it's summarised here:
http://www.thelabradorsite.com/should-i-have-my-labrador-neutered-the-latest-evidence/
And we previously discussed this here: http://thelabradorforum.com/forum/n...rador-behaviour/240307-do-i-neuter#post240307

It's the removal of testosterone (Oban might be affected)

It's either of the above in combination with a lack of socialisation to intact males (Oban, I would have thought, would be less affected by this at 8 years old)

 

I have indeed experienced my dog (neutered at 4) being 'targeted' by intact males, neutered males, and the odd bitch. My last dog, a SBT, became less reactive after he was castrated.
The 'nasty' dog thing is usually a reactive dog who does so out of fear. Dogs who are afraid and cannot use flight (on the leash) will use fight. There are truly very few nasty dogs out there.

 

I should add, where I live a lot of dogs are kept outside as working or guard dogs and haven't been socialised properly.

 

I had to stop going to one particular forest trail due to an out of control Malamute , an entire two year old who would make a bee line for Sam and try to mount him . Not only did I dislike my dog being scared but worried abut possible damage as the dog would pin Sam down . Other people had the same problem , we all voiced our feeling to the owners who , frankly didn't seem to be bothered , they have now moved away and so normal service has been resumed . I do dislike generalisations , there are good and not so good in both camps, in my humble opinion .

 

I think this thread did start off being presented as a generalisation unfortunately - but I don't think it is a generalisation to say there is a tendency in male neutered dogs to react to male intact dogs. I personally think that is a fact. That doesn't mean all neutered dogs do it, and it doesn't mean all intact dogs are free from fault (indeed they may as a result become reactive themselves) or don't have many other faults.

 

I'm sure there is an element of truth in it, and an increase of reactivity has also been noted in neutered females. But what I'm trying to say is a lot of this is down to fear, whether that's due to lack of sex hormones or whatever. It doesn't make them 'nasty' maybe I'm not explaining myself well. All I know is a high percentage of dog attacks, whether on humans or other dogs are due to fear. It's the humans responsibility to solve this problem and work with the dog to try and resolve the issues.

 

Very true, jojo - good point, yes.

 

Homer is 3 1-2 and still intact. He's not aggressive but will give a good warning growel and a snarl especially towards younger boisterous dogs. With younger puppies once he's had a chance to lay down a boundary of acceptable annoyance he'll tolerate them.

On a few although rare occasions he's had both intact and neutered dogs unexpectedly come running up and jump on him aggressively. Rather than fighting back he tries to shake the dog off. One young Dalmatian has done this a couple of times, and an intact Alsatian was aggressive towards Homer.

I'm just saying that we've had experience from both intact or not, some younger some a bit older. Individual dogs react to each other in different ways.

 

I agree with jojo.

Instead of starting with "nasty neutered dogs who attack my entire male dog" how about considering the alternative of "neutered dogs who are fearful of the odd, testosterone-laden vibe that my entire male dog is (unintentionally) giving off".

Yes it is a thing that desexed dogs can be fearful of entire male dogs (and can make a lot of noise and bluster about it). My day care people have definitely observed this (they don't allow entire dogs after 7 months of age for that reason). It also can be the case (in my experience) that some (not all) entire males who attract this response have quite an upright stance and stare a lot.

 

It's really so unfortunate that this subject ends up, or even starts, in rock throwing across the intact/neutered fence. Sigh.....it really should be banned as a topic.

 

I thought I was quite diplomatic