Still displaying same puppy behaviours at 10 mths - what's going on?

Hello all,

I haven't been on the forum for a while as it has all been a bit mad here generally, but after a promising phase, Lily's behaviour seems to be going backwards!

Since I was last on the forum, when Lily bit the vet in fright, I took decisive action and changed vets. I am happy to say the new vets have been really great at getting Lily settled and have the right attitude for dealing with her. They know her history and have suggested that she does some gundog training as she needs an outlet for all that energy and excitement; not only that, but the aim for me is also to get her control and obedience training up to scratch, which such disciplined training may offer.

It was all going well, Lily went to see a local trainer and he did some work with us and she was doing really well for a beginner. She even went on a shoot to see how she got on and she was just doing what the other dogs did, just following, not gun-shy, she did really well. (This trainer does not use treats in training - relevant later.) Lily did some socialisation with him and his dogs over several days and she seemed to have learned well. She was better after this with her lab friend next door, though still initially super-excited to see him, she did eventually settle down on our walks.

But now, a few weeks have gone by and she is back to her 'old' self, she is still jumping up, still chewing the lead, still using her mouth/teeth when trying to get what she wants (or to avoid being held by the collar, for example) and is taking little or no notice of me when I give her commands. She is jumping and wrestling her lab friend Benji and he has to get really rough with her to stop. It is as if she has no idea how to behave around other dogs. Granted, she still sits when I am preparing to give her meals. She does wait now for me to go through the door when going for a walk. She also will - sometimes - not pull on the lead and will sit at the kerb if I wait long enough. But when I am trying to do some training with the dummy, she will sit for a second and then jump about like a mad thing as I am swinging the dummy to throw it. Then she'll run to fetch it in and then will run wherever she pleases and won't let go of it when I can catch her.

We have been back for a 1 to 1 training session and she was worse than when the trainer first saw her; she was awful. Running around, jumping, nipping. She did some 'lost' work but it was all really demoralising. And to cap it all, when to lovely labs came for the session after mine, she ran off up to them and jumped all over them. I wanted to weep.

It is as if even doing the retrieving (if you can call it that) is too much freedom, she just loses all perspective and control. I know she is only 10 months and we have a long way to go, but I cannot help but compare her to the other labs in the immediate vicinity; there are 3 other labs in my two neighbours' houses and Lily is by far the worst behaved of all of them. I know she only behaves as we have (inadvertently) trained her, but we are really trying to be consistent and not give mixed signals. We are considering fencing off part of the garden and having a kennel so that she learns to understand that we do not want to spend time with her when she is misbehaving. She is no longer in her crate because she will sleep ok through the night in the kitchen and she seemed to get to a point where she was wound up when put in the crate during the day (even though she had always been crated at intervals during the day).

She will still whine and bark for attention when we are in another room, for example, when we are on the phone and this sort of disruption isn't diminishing even though we are trying not to respond or reward this behaviour in any way.

Will she will ever learn how to behave? We are trying, but the situation is creating a lot of stress in our house. My hands are painful and sore from the lead and I dread walks now. I need some reassurance that she will grow out of all this. Still no season yet, whereas I thought her worsening behaviour from 2 months may have been related to hormones.

We have attended regular puppy training from 6 months (which didn't do anything at all - Lily had to have an op at 4 mths so this delayed her starting) and have routinely trained with treats, but now moving to gundog training with a trainer who does not use treats I am thinking may be contributing to her lapses in behaviour?

I feel that there is so much information, so many opinions from people (I am NOT referring to the forum - you have been marvellous), so many trainers and methods, my head is in a whirl and I don't know which way to turn. I did wear suede gloves when walking with her this morning though, so at least my hands are not shredded today and I have started to use treats/rewards again as that is the only way I can get her attention to do the things she has not learned how to do already.

I am sorry for the super-long offload. I ask a lot of questions because I'm feeling the pressure from others here rather than having the confidence to stick to my guns, it seems. Apologies :-\

Thanks all for being there!

 

Re: Still displaying same puppy behaviours at 10 mths - what's going on?

Personally I would give up the gun-dog training until you have the pet dog you want.

I can see how stressed you are and I feel for you. But I think maybe you need to lower your expectations a lot and then take baby steps towards the behaviour you want. Stop looking at other dogs - you have your dog, not anyone else's.

Decide on the behaviour that most stresses you out and make a good plan to deal with that first. Give Lily (and yourself) lots of opportunities to succeed.

Get the positive feelings back.

It's so easy to start thinking of dog ownership as some sort of test - it isn't!

 

Re: Still displaying same puppy behaviours at 10 mths - what's going on?

I agree with Boogs.

IMO the teenage years, from about 10-18 months, are the worse ! Sorry ! My lab really didn't display mature behaviour until about 2 years old, she was still jumping up and mouthing at 15 months!!

I personally think you are expecting too much, too soon. I am surprised she went on a shoot at such a young age, you must have been having a lot of gundog lessons ? Gundog training is really useful as there are many elements that can be used with the pet dog, particularly if you have a biddable one. Did you send your dog away to the trainer or did you do all the training lessons as well ? Is your intention to have a trained gundog to go out on shoots with ?

Don't forget she is still really a baby at 10 months and her behaviour is not abnormal for a labrador puppy of her age!

Chloe

 

Re: Still displaying same puppy behaviours at 10 mths - what's going on?

Well done for changing vets !! - well done for sit/waits for meals, going through doors nicely and sits at kerbs! 10 month teenager especially after health problems when young - will try your patience

"dread walks" is not a nice place to be - is there somewhere you can exercise safely off lead while you work on "loose lead walking" or preferable "no lead walking beside you" a few steps at a time - get the treats/rewards going.

work on recall too - always needed in teenage period!
nose touch to your hand on cue can manage lots of behaviour situations and can be made fun

 

Re: Still displaying same puppy behaviours at 10 mths - what's going on?

I would say she is still a puppy at 10 months I can clearly remember having several dogs at 18 months saying they would be lucky to live to second birthday. Then suddenly just after two years old we had lovely dogs who while not perfectly behaved all the time were pretty good most of the time.

 

Re: Still displaying same puppy behaviours at 10 mths - what's going on?

[quote author=Boogie link=topic=8109.msg114484#msg114484 date=1412338156]
Personally I would give up the gun-dog training until you have the pet dog you want.

I can see how stressed you are and I feel for you. But I think maybe you need to lower your expectations a lot and then take baby steps towards the behaviour you want. Stop looking at other dogs - you have your dog, not anyone else's.

Decide on the behaviour that most stresses you out and make a good plan to deal with that first. Give Lily (and yourself) lots of opportunities to succeed.

Get the positive feelings back.

It's so easy to start thinking of dog ownership as some sort of test - it isn't!


[/quote]

Wow I wasn't expecting that, but in my heart of hearts I am not sure about the gundog training. I was following the suggestion of the vet and subsequently the trainer. I also feel that I need to start again and just plod on with a bit of training in the field, as suggested by FoxyLady. I think I just need someone to talk some sense into me, to encourage me to follow my instincts which are saying 'this isn't right'.

[quote author=rubyrubyruby link=topic=8109.msg114487#msg114487 date=1412339240]
I agree with Boogs.

IMO the teenage years, from about 10-18 months, are the worse ! Sorry ! My lab really didn't display mature behaviour until about 2 years old, she was still jumping up and mouthing at 15 months!!

I personally think you are expecting too much, too soon. I am surprised she went on a shoot at such a young age, you must have been having a lot of gundog lessons ? Gundog training is really useful as there are many elements that can be used with the pet dog, particularly if you have a biddable one. Did you send your dog away to the trainer or did you do all the training lessons as well ? Is your intention to have a trained gundog to go out on shoots with ?

Don't forget she is still really a baby at 10 months and her behaviour is not abnormal for a labrador puppy of her age!

Chloe
[/quote]

I do agree here, actually, but I am feeling the pressure from my OH about her behaviour. Lily did go to the trainer for 5 days and just went along to the shoot as she fitted in so well with the other field dogs he has. Having said that, I am not necessarily aiming to go out on shoots with Lily, it is more about being able to have a dog who can behave with lots of distractions in a wide area and with other dogs around. Maybe it would be an option to eventually join in the puppy gun-dog class once she has calmed down a bit, as per Boogie's suggestion. The thing that appealed to me about gun-dog training was the mental stimulation aspect as like many labs my girl is intelligent and easily bored (exemplified in the chewing of skirting boards, etc.).

I will feel better when I can walk with Lily without fear of her jumping up at people and when visitors come to the house and when she can hear the phone ring/vacuum cleaner/hairdryer go on without barking. Maybe those are the two things to work on first!!!!!!

Thanks everyone, you've really helped give me a different perspective - and hope!

 

Re: Still displaying same puppy behaviours at 10 mths - what's going on?

[quote author=Boogie link=topic=8109.msg114484#msg114484 date=1412338156]

It's so easy to start thinking of dog ownership as some sort of test - it isn't!
[/quote]

Thank you, thank you, thank you for this comment. I need to remember that.

 

Re: Still displaying same puppy behaviours at 10 mths - what's going on?

I don't have a lot of experience with Labs. Lady is my first. What is certain sure is that they take a long time to grow up. You just have to hang in there. Speaking from my direct experience, Lady didn't show any signs of settling until quite suddenly as she was approaching 2 years old she started to calm down and stop doing all the maddening puppy stuff and started acting like a reasonable well mannered dog. She didn't fully mature until she was at least 3 years old.

The mouthing, chewing and jumping up! - been there and got the t-shirt! ;D

I'm not sure what the ideal age is to start gundog training, but a gamekeeper friend did suggest this to me too to give Lady something to do and exercise her physically and mentally. She was 18 months old when we started and it proved to be a good move. I can't see a problem in your continuing with that. I did it with the aim of ending up with a "well mannered" dog rather than a fully working gun dog, so the shooting aspect isn't an essential. Lilly is too young really to take on a shoot at the moment, but I guess walking with the shoot with Lilly on the lead would be fine as long as she's ok with the noise etc.

You don't say if Lilly is working strain/field bred or not. If she is she will tend to have a lot more get up and go than a show bred/pet Lab. My dog Lady is from 100% working lines and was an absolute nightmare when she was a puppy. If you've got a couple of hours I'll list the transgressions. We are still planning on the new carpets downstairs where she's chewed the corners, but most of the woodwork and paintwork has all been repaired now. We also have a working telephone. ;D

When Lilly is 3 years old you will be able to look back and laugh, I'm sure. Enjoy her while she's a pup - even 3 years is over all too soon. Oh and by the way she is now a proper working dog. The keep her occupied gun dog training paid off and that's what she is now as well as a lovely house pet. Dual purpose dog!

 

Re: Still displaying same puppy behaviours at 10 mths - what's going on?

I have a super excitable dog, better now at 18 months, but he was a nightmare in his younger months - at one point, it needed two people to walk him across a park. He is a show line dog, so if they are quieter than field bred ones, gosh...

I definitely would not give up the gundog training - so long as you enjoy it and continue to enjoy it. I don't say this lightly - as I also have a dog that goes nuts for dummies, is a stranger to the concept of steadiness, and fails to see the point of bringing things back. I have often thought heelwork to music as a hobby might be easier! But the key to gaining some control over him, and keeping him focused on me instead of other dogs, has been his interest in retrieving.

You might want to ask yourself whether you have the right trainer, but gundog training has been a godsend for me - at least it gave us both something to enjoy while slogging on with the "walking nicely" and "don't go nuts around other dogs" seemed like a long haul...

First, you have to have your foundations in place to take part in gundog training in a meaningful way. A good gundog trainer should be able to help you with that, in a way that lines you up to take part once you have a dog that is under control. It's no good if your trainer is only helping you with the training that is specific to gundog work though. I have never met a gundog trainer that has done that with me - indeed most have concentrated on helping me get my dog reasonably under control when really, I wanted a break to do more gundog specific stuff! Although you might have got unlucky.

From what you say, it does seem that you need a more structured approach though - it shouldn't be a surprise to you that your dog jumps about when you swing a dummy, for example. That just means that you haven't got a dog that is steady, and if you want one, you have to work through a programme in order to get it (I'm not smug in saying this, I'm on a long journey with my dog here too! ).

If you decide that you want to continue with the gundog training, Pippas Gundog Trust books are excellent. They take you through stages step by step.

 

Re: Still displaying same puppy behaviours at 10 mths - what's going on?

i'm responding not because i have any helpful input, but because i had to say how much i appreciated YOUR post... it made me feel better about MY ten-month-old (your post could well have been written about him, minus the gundog experiences!!!!)... i have truly been near tears several times the last month or so, wondering what in the world i am doing WRONG...... so now i feel somewhat better.



and to add to the list of lab-destructions.... he chewed a HOLE in the bathroom drywall. A HOLE. apparently he did it while i was soaking in the tub (it's in a small nook behind my bathtub where i wouldn't have seen him)... sneaky devil.

 

Re: Still displaying same puppy behaviours at 10 mths - what's going on?

My Molly is just a year old and can I sympathise with and remember only too well, how you feel.

In late August I started a thread about her called "Unacceptable Behaviour".

This is what I experienced. She would jump up at me, she would grab the lead and pull me round like a rag doll, she would grab at my clothes. All this behaviour would happen last about a minute, but seemed MUCH longer. I used to call them 'the sh*t fits'. Beginning to ring a bell?

I started looking forward to winter. It wouldn't hurt so much if I was wearing jeans and a coat instead of shorts.

It usually happened on her evening walk,so my day was focused on having my supper and getting her walk in before 6.00pm.

I was looking forward to the darker nights when people wouldn't see us. I felt a fool hanging on to the lead while this dog went nuts all around me.

I was careful where I walked, no narrow pavements where I could wind up in front of a car.

I tried to walk different routes, I didn't want the same people to see her and think she was a vicious, dangerous dog.

I wondered if I would be able to keep her, she could so easily have had me over in wet or slippery conditions.

I would liken it to the way a tired toddler behaves, hyper. I think it is a burst of energy with nowhere to go, if they are not on the lead they just run round and round in circles and we think it is funny and don't even remember it next day.

When Molly was a small puppy she would dash round and round the furniture early evening. I would call it "the six o'clock stupids". But it is no fun at all when you have a large, muscular puppy behaving the same way.

In the last month things have improved tremendously. I haven't made any great changes to her routine, she may have a few extra minutes off the lead, but that is all.

I think she just grew out of it, like that awful biting stage when they are little.

We still have plenty of training to do. I want her to walk better on the lead, I want her to come bounding up to me when I call, not come when it's convenient

But that awful feeling of despair and total inadequacy I was feeling only a few,short weeks ago is gone.

I hope this has helped you.

 

Re: Still displaying same puppy behaviours at 10 mths - what's going on?

[quote author=Mollly link=topic=8109.msg114545#msg114545 date=1412357256]

I think she just grew out of it, like that awful biting stage when they are little.

We still have plenty of training to do. I want her to walk better on the lead, I want her to come bounding up to me when I call, not come when it's convenient

But that awful feeling of despair and total inadequacy I was feeling only a few,short weeks ago is gone.

I hope this has helped you.
[/quote]

Lord Tina, that certainly makes ME feel better! Pongo has suddenly (at yes, ten months) turned into a non-responsive, uncooperative, deaf-as-a-post teenager. I do so hope that there is something in the 'growing out of it' statement - because I despair of sorting it with 'training' (we've proved pretty rubbish at that so far!)

 

Re: Still displaying same puppy behaviours at 10 mths - what's going on?

Hey, amandamummy and Paula - do you want to form the 'Teenage Labradors Anonymous' club? We can just be hugely embarrassed together about our ten-month-old dogs' behaviour....

 

Re: Still displaying same puppy behaviours at 10 mths - what's going on?

I have read so many posts on forums where people with puppies of 6-8 months are seriously considering getting another puppy because they feel that their current puppy is such an angel, perfectly behaved with no behaviour issues. So I try to warn them about what might be to come and maybe it might be a good idea not to get another puppy right now!

Then their pups hit 10-12 months and it's like they change into some hideous puppy that they don't recognise, some even think that there is something seriously wrong with them! Their behaviour changes, they stop listening to you and generally become a pain in the bum.

It does get better though and there is light at the end of the tunnel, but there's no quick fix.

My advice is be firm, make boundaries and stick to them!

Chloe

 

Re: Still displaying same puppy behaviours at 10 mths - what's going on?

I'm ashamed to admit that it's the EMBARRASSMENT I find hardest to deal with! I feel such a prat shouting Pongo Pongo Pongo - completely pointlessly - as he runs madly towards someone else's perfectly behaved pooch and bowls them over....

 

Re: Still displaying same puppy behaviours at 10 mths - what's going on?

So sorry that you are having a rough time with Lily. At 10 months it really is a case of 'grown up looking on the outside, puppy in the brain area'. At that age my dog bit, grabbed clothing, jumped on everyone and everything, barked incessantly, and whined in the brief pauses between barks. Several months later he was much, much nicer.

When he was really obnoxious we found time-outs in another room helpful. But also essential was using something he wanted (food) to teach him acceptable alternatives to whining, jumping etc. The basic weapon in our armory was really heavily and frequently rewarding him for lying down, so we could get him to lie down as an alternative to all the other annoying, noisy and painful behaviours. Anytime he lay down he got a treat. We also put it on cue so we could get it anytime. It became his default behaviour - if he wanted something he'd lie down. Training one thing like that helped as it was really clear and consistent for him. He got what he wanted (treat, attention) by asking in an acceptable way.

I would definitely keep up the gundog training, while keeping your goals realistic. Use it as an opportunity to work on steadiness and also just plain giving her something to think about. You cannot do too much training at this age. By that I don't mean marching up and down a field in a heel pattern or doing 55 sits in a row. I just mean that in every aspect of her life think about the behaviour you would rather have - what is the first baby step towards that behaviour? Work on showing her what the better alternative is (lie down or whatever) and make it worth her while with rewards she values. Become a walking treat dispenser and look for every glimmer of a positive behaviour and reward it.

Honestly, although it's kinda nightmarish, her behaviour is so normal. Most of them are a trial when they hit the 'strong as an ox with the self-control of a lemming' stage. But how many older Labs do you see who are flinging themselves around like idiots? Not so many. That's because they do grow up (with a little help from their friends).

 

Re: Still displaying same puppy behaviours at 10 mths - what's going on?

[quote author=Rosie link=topic=8109.msg114559#msg114559 date=1412358956]
I feel such a prat shouting Pongo Pongo Pongo - completely pointlessly - as he runs madly towards someone else's perfectly behaved pooch and bowls them over....
[/quote]

I do think they grow out of general silliness - at least, Charlie is definitely showing signs of doing so. I honestly don't think they grow into having a good recall. If they do though, hurrah! Can't wait! ;D ;D ;D

Stop shouting Pongo (it doesn't do any good) - if the worse happens, get over to your dog as fast as possible, put him on a lead without saying anything, then apologise. Next time, put him on a long line and harness and stamp on it if he ignores your stop (a recall is challenging as he is heading away). And find a trainer/friend etc. with some dogs, and proof your recall. I think that's the only way, really.

 

Re: Still displaying same puppy behaviours at 10 mths - what's going on?

[quote author=Rosie link=topic=8109.msg114559#msg114559 date=1412358956]
I'm ashamed to admit that it's the EMBARRASSMENT I find hardest to deal with! I feel such a prat shouting Pongo Pongo Pongo - completely pointlessly - as he runs madly towards someone else's perfectly behaved pooch and bowls them over....
[/quote]

We've all been there, I promise ;D

First thing is - don't shout. It's not working, there's no point get to him as quickly as you can, apologise and beat your retreat knowing that pretty much everyone I have ever met with a lab has had to do it before you. Even my very good friend with her immaculately behaved girl who shoots has had to go and get her dog before now x

For the OP an outlet like gundog training is great and I started with our dog for very similar evasions to JulieT - something fun to do with my dog that would hopefully mean we got a well behaved dog. A good gundog trainer should absolutely help you with the basics....the tough bit is the amount of work you have to put in to proof your recall and heel work particularly.

It's all worth it though.....hang in there

 

Re: Still displaying same puppy behaviours at 10 mths - what's going on?

Oops cross posted with Julie - soz!

 

Re: Still displaying same puppy behaviours at 10 mths - what's going on?

[quote author=David link=topic=8109.msg114530#msg114530 date=1412349995]
I did it with the aim of ending up with a "well mannered" dog rather than a fully working gun dog, so the shooting aspect isn't an essential. Lilly is too young really to take on a shoot at the moment, but I guess walking with the shoot with Lilly on the lead would be fine as long as she's ok with the noise etc.

You don't say if Lilly is working strain/field bred or not. If she is she will tend to have a lot more get up and go than a show bred/pet Lab.

Oh and by the way she is now a proper working dog. The keep her occupied gun dog training paid off and that's what she is now as well as a lovely house pet. Dual purpose dog!
[/quote]

David, Lily is from working lines so I guess this is why she is so full of beans; I don't generally attend shoots or anything, it is just the gun-dog training bit I would like to work on at some point, really. SO glad your girl has successfully combined working and being a lovely pet, that is what we are aiming for!

[quote author=JulieT link=topic=8109.msg114533#msg114533 date=1412350820]
I definitely would not give up the gundog training - so long as you enjoy it and continue to enjoy it.

But the key to gaining some control over him, and keeping him focused on me instead of other dogs, has been his interest in retrieving.

You might want to ask yourself whether you have the right trainer, but gundog training has been a godsend for me

First, you have to have your foundations in place to take part in gundog training in a meaningful way. A good gundog trainer should be able to help you with that, in a way that lines you up to take part once you have a dog that is under control.

From what you say, it does seem that you need a more structured approach though - it shouldn't be a surprise to you that your dog jumps about when you swing a dummy, for example. That just means that you haven't got a dog that is steady, and if you want one, you have to work through a programme in order to get it (I'm not smug in saying this, I'm on a long journey with my dog here too! ).

If you decide that you want to continue with the gundog training, Pippas Gundog Trust books are excellent. They take you through stages step by step.
[/quote]

JulieT, you have typed some real words of wisdom, all makes sense. Build an interest in retrieving with the right trainer, getting the basics in place first. Hmmmm. One thing that occurred to me: does anyone do gun-dog training without a trainer, just by themselves, with books?

[quote author=Suthuncat link=topic=8109.msg114543#msg114543 date=1412356322]
i have truly been near tears several times the last month or so, wondering what in the world i am doing WRONG...... so now i feel somewhat better.

[/quote]

I am so glad I am not the only one ;D but at least I am smiling now after reading all these posts!!!

[quote author=Rosie link=topic=8109.msg114553#msg114553 date=1412358327]
Hey, amandamummy and Paula - do you want to form the 'Teenage Labradors Anonymous' club? We can just be hugely embarrassed together about our ten-month-old dogs' behaviour....
[/quote]

Yes please ;D - the training is an uphill struggle!

Molly, thanks for the encouraging words, I am looking forward to the day I can post that content about Lily....

[quote author=Oberon link=topic=8109.msg114561#msg114561 date=1412359712]
The basic weapon in our armory was really heavily and frequently rewarding him for lying down, so we could get him to lie down as an alternative to all the other annoying, noisy and painful behaviours. Anytime he lay down he got a treat. We also put it on cue so we could get it anytime. It became his default behaviour - if he wanted something he'd lie down. Training one thing like that helped as it was really clear and consistent for him. He got what he wanted (treat, attention) by asking in an acceptable way.

I would definitely keep up the gundog training, while keeping your goals realistic.
[/quote]

This sounds like something we can do. Simple, clear and consistent - and using rewards.

[quote author=bbrown link=topic=8109.msg114563#msg114563 date=1412360220]
It's all worth it though.....hang in there
[/quote]

Thanks for the support