I posted a few weeks ago about my unhappiness with the orthopaedic surgeon we were sent to see. So I asked my vet for a second referral closer to home where they could also do a CT scan onsite. So on Wednesday we had a very thorough, much more professional consultation with a surgeon, and Monty duly stayed on for his scan. Unfortunately, it's as we had all feared, severe Elbow dysplacia in both elbows, the right a bit worse than the left, hip dysplacia in his left hip, and some slight ankle problems too. Putting the hips and ankles aside, as they are insignificant compared to the elbows, we now have a six week plan to hopefully see some improvements in Monty before we consider surgery: - restricted exercise - up to an hour walk a day, in 2-3 sessions, sedate, on lead, no running (includes no running anywhere at any time) No swimming apparently! (have just booked 2 holidays close to the coast so he can swim -but this is classed as high impact which really surprised me. )Hydro treadmill is great though. - Daily Omega 3 - apparently all the supplements which include the regular ingredients such as glucosamine, chondroitin, etc, and the monthly cartrophen injections are not backed by evidence to show any improvement - we were told Omega 3 fatty acids are the only thing worth giving him - A change of anti inflammatory to Metacam, daily - More weight loss - despite being told by the other surgeon that he was a good shape, he is 'overweight' in our new vets eyes, for his condition - he wants him thin, not just fairly slim. We are going back in six weeks time to see if the changes above demonstrate any difference - he said the weight loss alone could make a real impact. If there's no difference, then we consider surgery to remove some pieces of fragmented bone - however this is only going to make some difference - there's no cure, no surgery that would fix his elbows and it's how we, and he, manages it. If it were his hips, he would say do a hip replacement straight away, but the elbows are so complicated they are not in a position to offer this yet. I did ask around the question of his overall quality of live / amount of pain he was in, - I'm sure you know what I'm getting at - but he assured me that he was a very happy dog, despite having sore elbows and we should not be thinking of putting him to sleep (that episode of supervet is still haunting me) So, the challenge is, nice on lead walking, with very few treats available! Any ideas on the lowest calorie treat?? Am thinking prawns or chicken... I will post separately about his embarrassing, but hilarious behaviour at the vets...
Re: Still no running.. and six weeks to improve I am so very, very, glad that you have some good advice - and it's very similar to the advice I had for Charlie. Lots and lots of steady walking in small increments, get the dog so slim he can be considered thin, water treadmill not swimming....yep, all sensible stuff. I am also so very pleased your fears about Monty's quality of life have been resolved. Please don't give that another thought. So pleased you have a way forward. Just cut down the food and keep it cut down. Just feed less of whatever you normally feed. Cut it back by a third immediately, make sure nothing else sneaks in and see how you go. Weigh your dog every week until you can clearly and obviously see a real waist and the ends of his last rib however he is standing, and the faint outline of all of his ribs when he is sniffing or eating with his tummy tucked in - then make a note of that weight. At this point, my vet declared Charlie just about ok....
Re: Still no running.. and six weeks to improve [quote author=leejane link=topic=10444.msg154052#msg154052 date=1428058741] - Daily Omega 3 - apparently all the supplements which include the regular ingredients such as glucosamine, chondroitin, etc, and the monthly cartrophen injections are not backed by evidence to show any improvement - we were told Omega 3 fatty acids are the only thing worth giving him [/quote] I got this same advice, recently. http://www.thelabradorforum.com/index.php?topic=10177.msg149793#msg149793 I give Charlie Synoquin EFA, which I thought I was giving because of the glucosamine and chondroitin, and I should keep giving it my vet says, but it's the krill oil - the Omega 3 essential fatty acids that's the real hope...you need to give it in quite high quantities.
Re: Still no running.. and six weeks to improve I don't have Julie's experience but that all sounds sensible, well thought out and most importantly well communicated! As a result you sound much more confident. Best of luck, you can do it
Re: Still no running.. and six weeks to improve Sorry to hea all this. Hope you manage to get through the next few weeks without too many sad puppy eyes It might be worth looking at barker and barker treats - they are very, very low in calories and you can use about 100-150 per day.
Re: Still no running.. and six weeks to improve With the treats...the best thing I did was simply accept that there wasn't enough food available to "waste" it by giving it away for free in a bowl. So the whole food allowance - just about - was used for lead walking training, or in kongs, or in games or clicker training. The very last thing I'd do with it was put it in a bowl to be inhaled in 10 seconds....
Re: Still no running.. and six weeks to improve So pleased you have a way forward over the coming weeks with Monty. I'm surprised about the swimming as my Orthopaedic specialist says that going forward, swimming is brilliant for Juno, or is it because he wants Monty to rest as a much as possible over the next weeks? Can't advise on low calorie treats but would go for using Monty's kibble for treats as JulieT suggests and just add the odd extra special treat. Juno loves a piece of apple as a special treat. I've just put her on Hills Prescription diet J/D calorie reduced at the specialists and my vets suggestion. That may be worth considering.
Re: Still no running.. and six weeks to improve With swimming, if the joint is unstable in some way, a total lack of pressure on the joint while exercising can make things worse - that's why the water treadmill is better, there is some pressure on the leg, and the action is "normal" ie not waving around, but the water creates a resistance work out and supports the weight so it's low impact. Swimming is fantastic exercise generally, but not for all types of injury. We are taking about a different type of injury in Charlie's case, but swimming was more suitable for Charlie after surgery, when the joint had been stabilised, than before surgery.
Re: Still no running.. and six weeks to improve Can't add anything, but just wanted to wish you luck with Monty.
Re: Still no running.. and six weeks to improve [quote author=JulieT link=topic=10444.msg154120#msg154120 date=1428077049] With swimming, if the joint is unstable in some way, a total lack of pressure on the joint while exercising can make things worse - that's why the water treadmill is better, there is some pressure on the leg, and the action is "normal" ie not waving around, but the water creates a resistance work out and supports the weight so it's low impact. Swimming is fantastic exercise generally, but not for all types of injury. We are taking about a different type of injury in Charlie's case, but swimming was more suitable for Charlie after surgery, when the joint had been stabilised, than before surgery. [/quote] Thanks for the clarification JulieT, that makes sense and why my Orthopaedic Specialist is recommending swimming for Juno - I've even been researching he possibility of Hydrotherapy pool for her ;D
Re: Still no running.. and six weeks to improve Sending positive thoughts your way, and wishing you and Monty luck.
Re: Still no running.. and six weeks to improve Best of luck with Monty's regime,sounds like you've had a really thorough and clear report x
Re: Still no running.. and six weeks to improve Positive thoughts for Monty from us. For low calorie treats I use tiny pieces of raw carrot and apple. Max loves these as much as chicken and sausage! Good luck!
Re: Still no running.. and six weeks to improve Hi, thanks for your kind words and suggestions, sorry this is probably going to be a long post: [quote author=JulieT link=topic=10444.msg154120#msg154120 date=1428077049] With swimming, if the joint is unstable in some way, a total lack of pressure on the joint while exercising can make things worse - that's why the water treadmill is better, there is some pressure on the leg, and the action is "normal" ie not waving around, but the water creates a resistance work out and supports the weight so it's low impact. Swimming is fantastic exercise generally, but not for all types of injury. [/quote] Yes, that's just how we had it described, the problem with Monty would be that he kicks out too hard and fast and this does some damage. The surgeon also said how fast dogs paddle in water and is quite uncontrolled. Looks like we are going to have to stick to just paddling in the shallows on holiday (there is no way I am not taking the dog to the beach now I've picked out a cottage with him in mind!) In the food front my plan is: Reduce kibble to a half of daily allowance. This then allows for: - 2-3 kongs using kibble, mixed in with a bit of tuna, or carrot, apple, chicken and frozen - hot dog sausages - have found some at only 34 calories each, made mostly from chicken, that I've sliced up into tiny bits, one and a half per day. Mixed in with a bit of normal kibble so they pick up the smell of the meat. This is his treats for on walks as he gets rewarded every 10 yards for good loose lead walking, I can't skimp on this at the moment as I think he is really making progress and everything is on lead for now. - 3-4 gravy bones per day as a treat - 2-3 small raw bones per week. - Need to give at least a quarter of the day's kibble with his medication, so done through a slow food bowl which lasts at least 10 minutes. - Odd bits of kibble given through kong wobblers, treat release balls. - Occasional raw hide chews - though he's pretty slow to eat these Annoyingly his kibble consists of huge pieces, they are like massive cheerios, you can cut one into four treat size pieces but I think life is too short for me to spend hours a day doing this.... [quote author=Naya link=topic=10444.msg154090#msg154090 date=1428069787] Sorry to hea all this. Hope you manage to get through the next few weeks without too many sad puppy eyes It might be worth looking at barker and barker treats - they are very, very low in calories and you can use about 100-150 per day. [/quote] Am going to google these, thanks Ternaya, - wouldn't it be helpful if calorie contents were put on dog foods, then I could work out exactly what he could have each day? or is this a bit obsessive?! In terms of Omega 3, any suggestions on dosage? the surgeon said whatever a human dose is in quite an bothered way - but the shops sell at least three different strengths of it. I'm currently giving 2/3 of the recommended 'human' dose, the strength of each capsule is 1200mg, I thought best to increase it slowly as not sure of any side effects?
Re: Still no running.. and six weeks to improve I think it's very hard to say what a dosage of Omega 3 should be - it does seem to come in different forms. This is one advantage of buying something specifically for dogs - the dosage is calculated and set out for you. Charlie gets 200mg a day of dexahan (in synoquin), which is derived from krill oil. He started off on 1200mg for a "loading dose" and this was then reduced over time.
Re: Still no running.. and six weeks to improve yes, I'll have a better look at the ingredients in the dog ones - the human ones just seem to be a lot cheaper!
Re: Still no running.. and six weeks to improve Our ortho vet gave us very much the same advice as your one. He told us just to use human omega 3 caps but to use twice the adult human dose. Not sure if this was related at all to Lilly's weight She was pprobably about 28kg at the time. We just use the high strength omega 3 fish oil capsules from semi chem or body care. The adult dose is one daily so we give one with breakfast and one with tea. There was a thread previously about this with some links in which we discussed the different quality of these products. Can't find it....on my phone! I must say though, that i would never buy Beechams flu caps at £4 a pack when the asda ones contain the same for £1.50. I do appreciate it may not be QUITE the same for some products but that's just me.
Re: Still no running.. and six weeks to improve Thanks Jacqui, the ones I've got say three capsules per day for people so they probably aren't the strongest ones and guess I can certainly go a bit higher if you are feeding Lilly double that - I was trying to avoid any horrendous side effects from a big dose! Will check out body care, there's one where I work and they will be more reasonable than Holland and Barrett I'm all in favour of generic healthcare products - things like aspirin, ibuprofen, zovirax, hay fever tablets are so much cheaper at these discounted healthcare shops
Re: Still no running.. and six weeks to improve [quote author=leejane link=topic=10444.msg154052#msg154052 date=1428058741] - Daily Omega 3 - apparently all the supplements which include the regular ingredients such as glucosamine, chondroitin, etc, and the monthly cartrophen injections are not backed by evidence to show any improvement - we were told Omega 3 fatty acids are the only thing worth giving him [/quote] There's no evidence to suggest that glucosamine and chondroitin help, that's true. There's little evidence for Omega-3s (except they may help allergic skin conditions in conjunction with antihistamines). There is evidence that Cartrophen/Pentosan (same thing) can improve joint function and recovery from joint injury/surgery.
