Sorry, this might turn a bit ranty but I'm feeling really frustrated and spent all morning on the verge of tears. Our morning walk got off to an awful start when we had literally just walked out of the gate and bumped into an elderly lurcher we see around sometimes. Chaos ensues with both dogs bark, lunging and growling at each other. They unfortunately were walking the same way we were, so I gave them a couple of minutes headstart before following them. Penny is usually ok following a dog at a distance but not this morning. She would to respond to me at all, it was like she just went deaf and was just focussed on the other dog. They went into the field we were going to go into so I decided to scrap the off lead walk and do our pavement walk instead. All was going fine, she relaxed a bit and seemed happier. Then we walked past a bus stop where a girl was waiting in a coat with her hood up, a big furry one too. Penny is ok with this now, she used to have an issue with things like that but is a lot better now, but not today. So she had a lunge and a bark at the girl. I apologised and explained it was the hood, but just got the filthiest look imaginable in response. I think Penny was obviously still on edge from the encounter with the other dog. That was the straw that broke the camels back for be this morning and I burst into tears. Spent the rest of the walk in tears on my way back home. I feel so helpless and unsupported (except for on here of course). I emailed the behaviourist we have previously worked with at the end of last week, explaining the problems and that I had lost my confidence in handling her completely and I just feel like I got totally fobbed off with the reply he gave me. I have no friends or family with dogs that can help set up socialisation or training opportunities. We are supposed to be going away Easter weekend with my parents with the caravan club, there will be a lot of dogs around and we go to the local dog friendly beaches and harbours etc - I'm thinking of cancelling. I love her to peices but I am just at the end of my tether now. I don't even want her to like other dogs, just tolerate being around them and not act like she wants to kill them when she's on her lead. The other behaviourist I know doesn't currently do any private work (she is looking at setting this up, but it won't be for a long time). I just don't know what to do anymore. My behaviourist doesn't seem to want to help so it looks like I have to go it alone and I don't know what to do.
Re: Struggling I have a dog like that and was fortunate enough to find an ex-police dog handler. We trained by walking in the small down, going into the hotel for a cup of coffee, just generally giving the dog confidence, I had confidence because I was with a confident man and the dog became confident as well. The chap believes in not putting pressure on a dog, but giving them things to do to increase their confidence. So we would go to the edge of the river and get the dog to sit, go to tops of steps, even went into a church! He is considerable better now.
Re: Struggling So sorry to hear that you are down. I very much agree with Stacia - I would try to find some training classes, before things escalate - and you spend more time avoiding other dogs so Penny has fewer and fewer opportunities to be around them - but adapt the training to what you need to do. If you find a sympathetic instructor, that will allow you to work on the outskirts of a group, that would at least give you control over distance and the other dog owners would be co-operating with you. We have people do this at our training all the time, all the other students are happy to work with the people doing this, and now some of those dogs have the prospect of being able to take part.
Re: Struggling What a stressful walk....so sorry that it was a bad experience. I agree with the others - more and more gradual exposure is the key - keeping at a distance to a group of other dogs. We have people who do this at our dog club too. They just come for the exposure, nothing else. Over time, it really helps. Could you do that with a class run by your behaviourist perhaps? Maybe the behaviourist had a lot going on today and that is why you did not get a careful reply? I don't know your behaviourist of course but I would be thinking that she does want to help. What did she say? I understand how frustrating is can be when this kind of thing happens..... Big hug!
Re: Struggling Try and think it of just one of those days where Penny has taken a step backwards because of various triggers coming on top of each other. I expect she was feeling pretty stressed after meeting the lurcher as you came out of the gate and never quite recovered today. I agree with Stacia and JulieT though about a new trainer. It might be worth a couple of private lessons on the lines Stacia had to help educate Penny with different situations enabling her, and you, to gain confidence before joining classes. Try and put today behind you and perhaps do some fun training with Penny later with games you both enjoy. Hugs from me and Juno
Re: Struggling Aw, Lauren - I'm the worst person to give advice, so I'll just send tons of sympathy and big hugs. Penny is a lovely girl, and you're a very caring, conscientious owner who is doing everything you can to make life good for her. You should feel proud of yourself, even if you have some bad days where it feels like everything is heading backwards. Tomorrow is another day. Big hugs.
Re: Struggling hello, sorry you've had a bad morning...as another reactive dog owner I understand how these things can feel. Would second what others have said about the temptation to just avoid all dogs, Cuillin's big issue was (and still is unless unless I am completely on the ball with her) groups of dogs and I found myself doing everything to avoid groups of dogs which ended up making her more scared of them! We are lucky in that there is a group that meets in my local park every week, and I have spent yonks hanging about on the margins with Cuillin, edging closer and closer and now she can sit and watch them without having a panic....I think trying to get into a training group where you can just hang with Penny, as others say, would be really good...we are giving Canicross Racing a go this weekend, which will be a real challenge for C, I've always wanted to do it with the dogs, and when we were advised by her behavourist a while back to get her involved in situations where she is 'working' around other dogs (and getting confidence boost) we decided to go for it, its taken a while for me to get her to the stage where I think this environemnt won't fry her brain and put us backwards, the organisers are fantastic and are letting us start a minute and a half behind the main group, so will see how we go and I'll let you know. The organisers have told me that they have had a lot of reactive dogs starting Canicross, who have improved massively over time as a result of taking part, and are now able to be calm around groups of stranger dogs or individual dogs - they might not want to go and be best mates with them, but they are fine to be around them and this has carried on massively to help every day interactions...I wonder if there is something similar near you where you can get Penny 'working'....
Re: Struggling [quote author=debsie link=topic=10208.msg149812#msg149812 date=1426504725] where you can get Penny 'working'.... [/quote] I think this is an excellent point.
Re: Struggling [quote author=JulieT link=topic=10208.msg149813#msg149813 date=1426504917] [quote author=debsie link=topic=10208.msg149812#msg149812 date=1426504725] where you can get Penny 'working'.... [/quote] I think this is an excellent point. [/quote] Penny is such a lovely, sweet dog, really enjoy meeting up with her on the Severnside walks You know that Casper is reactive, mainly to dogs on lead, and doesn't feel comfortable with groups of unfamiliar dogs. We are taking him to agility tonight, where he will be working with other dogs, so should be interesting as a lot of the time he will be on lead.
Re: Struggling I agree wholeheartedly about the working point. If she is really concentrating on something, then the other dogs might not be such an issue for her.
Re: Struggling I would second (third, fourth?) the working point. Riley isn't reactive in that other dogs cause him stress but he does find them enormously distracting. He's far, far better in class than anywhere else (eventually!) and this started to help in the world at large too. I'm sure you have but have you looked for APDT trainers near you. I would imagine they'd be quite understanding of your situation and happy to have you on the periphery until you can get closer. Hoping you're feeling better today
Re: Struggling Thank you everyone. I've given myself a slap round the face and pulled myself together!! I've ordered Grisha Stewarts BAT book (thanks Jen) and will also be printing off some of the PDFs from her website before I leave work tonight. I totally get where you are all coming from with regards to getting her 'working' - when we did our Rally O classes I could use the downtime between courses to work on our 'click for calm' behaviour around the other dogs in the class and she was beginning to show an improvement, however I think the Rally class may have been a bit much for her because there were lots of times where the other dogs had to pass her and when I came our turn to run the course it was very difficult. I've had a look for training classes in my area and I have found one that I am potentially interested in - she does the KC good citizen scheme which could be a good one to do as i can stand at the back of the class at a 'safe' distance for Penny. But I think I will give it a few weeks of working through BAT before contacting her about spaces etc. unfortunately she's not IMDT (which is what I really wanted), there don't seem to be many of those in my area, but her credentials look good and I am planning on emailing her to discuss Penny's requirements before committing to enrolling in any classes. (She also runs Rally O classes which I hope we may be able to work up to) Feeling a lot better now as I feel like I have a plan of action.
Re: Struggling Creating a plan of action really helps. Sitting worrying about things makes it all seem a lot worse! So good on you.
Re: Struggling Good. That's better. We don't have a lot of standing around and waiting in our class - we do watch demos, but then most of the group gets sent off to do exercises we already know (often the most experienced student is put in charge of a group) until it's our turn. The trainer says she's seen too many dogs either trained to do nothing to the extent they are reluctant to offer behaviours, or frustrated, by long waiting. We do "do nothing" exercises, but it's timed and we all know for how long our dogs can do nothing. For Charlie, in a group of active dogs, it's only 30 seconds. It used to be 19, so we are getting better. But even if the trainer is talking, at 25 seconds I'll get up and move before resettling him. So it's about finding a format that suits you too.
Re: Struggling Lauren you could try VeryPets run by Katie Scott Dyer a friend of mine. She is so approachable and very, very good. She helped initially with Casper in his early days here. http://verypets.co.uk/ There is also Widgets farm, which is a bit of a distance, however their adolescent classes have helped us enormously. The Yoof club we are enrolled in is a great way for us to build on our new skills, learn new ones whilst we work with other dogs that have also been through the classes so are known to our trainer. She is amazing, and gets Benson doing all sorts of things! (Yes you did detect a hint of jealousy! ;D ) I think it is a real challenge with a dog that is a bit reactive, and we all have those days where things happen outside our influence and have a real effect on the behaviour of our dogs. I have ended up at times completely miserable after a walk. We are building a scurry here soon, hopefully next weekend it will be finished. If you want to along with Naya and Harley have a fun session here training then a walk in the fields (private) you are more than welcome!
Re: Struggling [quote author=Beanwood link=topic=10208.msg149857#msg149857 date=1426516631] We are building a scurry here soon, hopefully next weekend it will be finished. If you want to along with Naya and Harley have a fun session here training then a walk in the fields (private) you are more than welcome! [/quote] That sounds fab Kate! Perhaps we can do a mini-meet for the 'grand opening'!! Hahaha
Re: Struggling Oh Lauren I'm so sorry you've had one of those mornings. I've had plenty of those myself and expect to have more. I think that's something we have to accept with reactive dogs there will always be blips, things that happen beyond our control, like the lurcher appearing this morning, it doesn't make it any easier though. :-\ I'm glad you found the BAT info. Have you seen the website www.careforreactivedogs.com ? It's very similar to BAT but I think it explains everything more concisely. This training method is counter conditioning and it gives some very good tips like when the dog sees the trigger wait two or three seconds then start rapid feeding of treats. When the trigger disappears wait two or three seconds and stop feeding. It doesn't use functional rewards which BAT does. The functional reward is the thing the dog wants to happen. I'm guessing in penny's case she sees a dog and barks to make it go away to increase the distance between it and her. The dog going away is the functional reward and so reinforces the barking. With BAT you give the dog the functional reward before it reacts, preferably after its given an alternative behaviour/calming signal. The dog then learns it has a choice it doesn't have to deal with the trigger. Obviously I've simplified that but I've used a combination of these training methods. If possible I give the functional reward if not I use the traditional counter conditioning methods. Do you know how far Penny's threshold is ? My dogs' was a good 20/30 metres and they'd start reacting, big head, too much interest etc. Now they will go right upto these people so it does work it can be done and it will get better I promise. Remember we just keep plodding and eventually ........ :
Re: Struggling She used to be fine with dogs on the other side of the road, so maybe 20 feet? Unless they started it hahaha, but now we can't even do that, I have to hide behind parked cars until they're at a 'safe' distance - we did have a good thing this morning in that we managed to follow Louis the German shepherd home from the park on the opposite side of the roads about 30 feet away but he's a really placid dog and doesn't even twitch an ear at her so that was just a stroke of luck it was him really. I think she would have reacted to another dog, even if it ignored her. Seems like at the moment all they have to do is glance in her direction
Re: Struggling Do you know the German shepherds owner even just to say hello to ? Maybe you could ask if you could join them on their walk even just part of it. I find walking, a bit like the others have suggested about working, takes their mind off reacting (except for a little black miniature schnauzer who has joined us a couple of times it never stopped yapping !!! ) and if Louis is calm it will help. You could do the same thing next time something happens like the lurcher incident. Just ask if you can walk along for a bit the barking will stop. The other thing you could try is dropping tasty treats on the ground just in front of her to break her focus on the other dog. Preferably before she starts to react but even after. I think I remember you mentioning a park where dogs are exercised. You could take penny there and just watch. Find a bench, feed penny treats and let her watch other dogs. I wonder is she's gone worse since the staffi incident ? :-\
Re: Struggling She has definitley gotten worse since the last incident, but it's also been gradual over recent weeks. I'm partly wondering if she is in pain with her hips, as she will very occasionally give a little growl if we touch her back legs when we are all lying in bed. She's never lame or stiff though, so it's difficult to tell. Being in pain would definitley heighten her reactivity towards others dogs as I've experienced it before. So many things to think about! Louis is calm at a distance but up close he can be a bit excitable as he's only young, he doesn't go off lead as his recall is atrocious! I've spoken to the owner a couple of times.
