Thought I would start a separate log from the original thread, specifically regarding the Suprelorin implant which Benson had a week and a half ago. We were wanting to surgically castrate, however due to work/holiday commitments we couldn't. We now feel that Benson at almost 19 months old is now sexually mature, so after lengthy discussions with our vet we opted for Suprelorin. The main advantage over surgical castration is that it is reversible. Original Tardak thread below for reference: http://thelabradorforum.com/forum/n...0104-tardak-temporary-chemical-castration-log Differences between Tardak and Suprelorin...basically Tardak masks the effect of testosterone and has a more immediate effect however over a short period, 3 - 4 weeks. In some dogs this can be shorter...Benson only had a narrow effect barely 2 weeks. Great for 2 local bitches in season, but probably not enough time to determine whether any significant effect on behaviour (sexually driven..intense sniffing, searching out bitches, very distracted primarily) Suprelorin is an implant, (GnRH-agonist deslorelin).which works by initially stimulating testosterone causing a flood through the system in the first few weeks followed by production of testostorone being switched off. Sperm should be sterile after 6 weeks. Changes in behaviour, if notably affected by testosterone, are observed around this time. There are two doses available 4.7mg and 9,4mg. 4.7mg is the most commonly used and is effective for around 6 months. A good reference here: http://www.ema.europa.eu/docs/en_GB..._the_public/veterinary/000109/WC500068830.pdf NOAH : http://www.noahcompendium.co.uk/Virbac_Limited/Suprelorin_4_7_mg_implant_for_dogs/-48970.html I haven't found much information regarding what the initial surge looks like, and sifting through the internet can be a minefield! It is certainly worth being aware of, although I appreciate each dog is different. What we have seen so far: ( 13 days post implant) 1. Increased sniffing 2. Increased excitement - whining in anticipation of a walk. 3. Increased distraction to the point of impossible to train in areas where other dogs have been. 4. Increased marking (growling after marking) The above are the reasons why we are considering castration anyway, they have just become intensified, and causing Benson some frustration. Luckily we are able to walk in our own fields where no other dogs have been, and then we have a completely different dog, relaxed and very focussed. There are lots of distractions and scents...fox, deer and rabbit but no dog scent.
That's very interesting, poor Benson , all that testosterone surging , thank goodness you have your own fields where he can switch off
I do feel it is better to castrate rather than to use 'chemicals' for the same result. Both my boys have been castrated, one too early I feel at 11 months and one at 19 months. I would have kept them entire but they had a prepucial catarrh which was leaving yellow stains up the walls! The are both happy, do not appear to attract entire males,
Yes we would have rather surgically castrated, but I still am not entirely sure (s'cuse the pun! . The time was right however, to do something, Benson was really becoming a handful, despite intensive training. With our holiday and work commitments it just was not possible.to surgically castrate. Ironically hubby is now taking a bit of time off work, not voluntarily sadly. Completely with you re: stains...and err...his morning glory.. I look at Suprelorin more from a pharmaceutical perspective than chemical..and whilst having a major effect on hormone production, that is no different in end result to surgical castration. I have also reviewed clinical trials which compared surgical castration and Suprelorin. The main concern in my mind should be that the dog is sexually mature, and also not of a nervous disposition. The flux in hormone is different to surgically castrating a dog, and this should be managed carefully, with particular care to behaviours and responses to other dogs and situations..I know that some vets recommend a concomittant dose of short acting Tardak to help mitigate these initial side-effects. Of course some dogs may not even notice and this is just my opinion based on one dog. Having a strategy to cope with those first few weeks is something that maybe should be advised.
To be completely honest, having followed Benson's story I'm now surer than ever that my next male dog will be getting the chop at 7 months and not a moment later.
Just want to add that my post was tongue in cheek and not meant to trivialise the issue. I do really admire the lengths you have gone to, Kate, to find a solution that works, and also in educating us along the way.
Hi Kate. Poor Benson must be frustrating for him but there is light at the end of the tunnel. You mentioned that there is a difference between the flux in hormone and surgical castration. Is that just because of the surge of testosterone to begin with or dose the difference continue. I may of misunderstood what you've written but do you think suprelorin could affect a nervous dog more than castration ? I remember you saying your vet asked a lot of questions about Bensons behaviour/temperament with other dogs etc before going ahead with the implant.
You are absolutely right, the flux I was referring to is the surge of testosterone which is due to the the initial release of gonadatrophin releasing hormone which eventually supresses the production of testosterone. My understanding is this can take a few weeks, I guess this effect probably varies between dogs.. The evidence doesn't appear to support the hypothesis that chemical or surgical castration will affect a nervous dog, however it is very hard to be objective when measuring aggressive/fear responses in dogs. The vet had heard of one case a few years back which is why he raised it, just wanted to be on the safe side I guess. He had used it in a number of dogs without any problem at all. I have heard that testosterone can support a dog as a sort of crutch, and when you remove this dogs become more female..in the sense that bitches are more prone to nervousness than dogs, but I don't know how evidence based that is, or whether it is more observational. This is quite interesting reading.. http://dspace.library.uu.nl/handle/1874/202798
If you google Superlorin implant you will find an article on labrador forums highlighting the reasons why assessing a dog's behaviour before the implant, even a very slight nervousness, appears to be a crucial part in deciding whether to use it or not. Interestingly within this thread there is also a post from another owner who also experienced massive changes in behaviour with their dog, but I am assuming unless your vet chooses to report these things to the pharmecutical companies then it is difficult to know exactly how many dogs have been affected by this implant.
Thank you both. Very interesting reading. My main concern is scout. Scott although nervous copes a lot better scout can be very timid. For all their aggressive noise when faced with their fear they want to run. The incidents we have had with the Tibetan terrier attacking us were interesting in that it proved my dogs aren't 'aggressive' they had no intention of standing their ground never mind attacking. Unfortunately it has left Scout very scared of that particular stretch of road. It takes him a lot longer to get over things than Scott. My concern would be removing his testosterone would make him worse.
The discussion with the vet re: behaviour, was more to ensure that we were doing this chemical castration for the right reason, ie: was his behaviour due to a medical/neurological reason? Or did we simply need to up the ante with training. We did discuss whether Benson had excessive nervousness as part of the discussion, although it was fairly obvious this wasn't the case! Regarding Supreloriin usage in other dogs, If there had been an adverse event of any kind, the vet would be legally obliged to report this through their pharmacovigilance process. Pharmacovigilance reports then are collated and signals indicating safety issues usually lead to a change in the stats on the product information.
3 week update: Finally the testosterone surge is over. Benson is so much happier and maybe a more accurate description is more relaxed. No more intense sniffing, or being dragged around on the lead. He is also far more focussed on training, which is a surprise. Over the next few weeks we should be seeing the same behaviour patterns associated with surgical castration. Still early days, the whole process takes between 40 and 60 days to see an effect from the chemical castration.
This study assessed 23 dogs, mainly through owner questionnaires. There was a study (for an MsC thesis), posted on facebook (on "against the routine neutering of dogs") that assessed 105 dogs (using a similar method) and came up with the opposite conclusion on nervousness. I'm not saying either is right, but these studies using questionnaires are a bit dodgy, I think. I have a lot of biases (honestly declared at least ) - my natural inclination is to think the routine castration of dogs is a bad thing (I'm not saying it's bad for all dogs) and I have been quite heavily influenced by gundog trainers, and gundog owners, where the culture is overwhelmingly to keep male dogs intact. And similar from the culture when I grew up (in rural Yorkshire). Everyone had a black Lab and the boys were all intact. We didn't have problems, and my whole family still thinks castrating a dog is a weird thing to do. These biases are reinforced when I take my intact dog to gundog training and there is never any trouble with the other intact male dogs, while feel like I'm dodging bullets of badly behaved, aggressive and nervous castrated males walking round the park...of course, this could be because Charlie is "normal" at gundog training and "not normal" in the park. So, i don't know what the answer is re nervousness and castration, although I wouldn't risk it. And i think Kate has done a great thing testing as far as she can the effects on Benson before she makes her decision.
Alternative explanation for Julie: It could be because dogs that go to training are trained, and dogs that do not go to training (a higher proportion of those in a public park as opposed to those in an actual training class) are not trained.... The dogs at my dog club (i.e. trained) are well behaved and they are overwhemingly desexed dogs...but I don't think it's anything to do with being desexed or not. It's mainly to do with being trained. Whatever you end up doing with Benson it will be an extremely informed and nuanced decision, Kate, thanks to all the careful study you have done of the interaction between the drugs and Benson's behaviour. It's good that you are seeing some effects now from the latest trial. It's all been fascinating.
I absolutely agree, considering how long dogs have been kept as pets, there is a lot of subjective data out there regarding the pros and cons of castration. Equally there seems a huge variance in terms of training techniques.. I think the two probably are linked. Gun dogs trainers are also "trainers" I very rarely see trained gun dogs (not just labs) being walked in popular places, I do see them on the quieter walks we prefer though. I am wondering if the consequence of castrating some dogs during adolescence or before has more of an impact on behaviour than we realise, combined with inadequate training = badly behaved dog? We know there is a natural surge of testosterone during this period. Another thought is the castration itself, is this process managed as well as it could be in general? I have spoken to a behaviorist at length about this, how is the aneasthetic administered/can the owner be with the dog during the recovery period? Are they brought around too quickly? Just musings on my part, but I do hear a lot that the first significant signs of nervousness experienced by a dog were actually at the vets. Benson has had some heart-stopping moments due to the fact he is entire..I wouldn't wish those on anyone. We haven't though experienced aggression from any dog towards him though,(castrated or not) and nor any aggression from Benson, he will grumble if another even attempts to mount him, and always the other dog backs off without a second warning, then play resumes We want the best for Benson, so the log is a way to prospectively record how he is affected (or not) through the suprelorin implant. Not just from a behaviour perspective, not that we expect to see any day to day changes.From a physical perspective..how much have we had to adjust his food intake to maintain his current weight for example? Interestingly, during the testosterone surge his weight has dropped slightly on the same quantity of feed..Exercise amounts have remained the same.
Sorry my point here was if a dog can "learn" nervousness/anxiety at the vets, can they then "learn" this behaviour in other situations? I guess this links to maybe a predisposition to nervousness, or poor/no socialisation when young.
Good point about the need to separate out (a) the simple effect of having an operation at the vet's from (b) the effect of castration on nervousness.
Sorry if this isn't relevant and it has nothing to do with castration well maybe loosely because it's why I haven't had my dogs castrated yet. My situation was obviously different as there was no operation and no anaesthetic to recover from but I'm convinced S&S reactivity towards people was triggered at the vet. However I do think they were of a nervous disposition to start with. Upto the treatment for ecoli in their bladders S&S behaved as you would expect lab pups to behave. They greeted people 'normally' with enthusiasm and excitement. In fact the people they met before the ecoli they have never had a problem with. Their behaviour towards people started to change about half way through the treatment roughly 20 weeks of age. They became more reserved with new people. The last appointment for a catheter they backed themselves into a corner and wouldn't let the vet near. The vet would normally take them into another room I had to hold them for the procedure. After that I guess they expected every strange person coming near was going to take them away and inflict pain. I suppose you can't blame them for being nervous. Having changed vets it was interesting to find out that my new vet would've given a mild sedation to do a catheter on such young dogs. In his opinion it was too much to put young dogs through. Maybe it differs from vet to vet as to their understanding of how much stress a dog can cope with. I would say my dogs 'learnt' their nervousness of people at the vets and then very easily transferred it to other situations.
