Trying to figure out what of the following is the best: 1. Teach stay with stay cue, i.e. tell the dog to stay until he gets a release cue? 2. Teach that stay is inherent in e.g. sit and down, i.e. the dog is told to sit or stay and supposed to stay until released? I feel like 2 in theory is the best as sit and down gets a real purpose but it seems intuitively more difficult to teach, especially a puppy. If I go with 2, any recommendaitons on how to teach the dog this? My puppy is 10,5 weeks, is it too early to start teaching this? When is a good age to start? Thanks
Re: Teach stay - with stay & release cue or just release cue? I do a separate cue to the action - "wait" - my trainer thinks this is best because then the concept of "wait" can be used for different actions. Sit, down, stand...and wait.
Re: Teach stay - with stay & release cue or just release cue? I don't think there's a right and wrong way to do it. Personally, I do 2. When I ask for a sit, down etc, I expect them to stay until I release. I started training this with Willow when she was 8 weeks old, so you're fine to start now. The only thing you have to be aware of is that you can't expect the stay to be long while he's so young; 5-10 seconds max. Here's how I did it (clicker trained, but you could charge up a word, eg "yes" as an event marker if you don't have a clicker). "C&T" means "click and treat". First, start by "streaming" treats in a sit. C&T, C&T, C&T. Then, vary the time between C&Ts, so you may pause for a couple of seconds, then give three in quick succession etc. Gets the dog used to understanding that he gets treated for essentially doing nothing except staying in the sit. Ask dog to sit in front of you. Put one foot back, slowly. Move it back, C&T. Once this is solid (ie you can put your foot back without him wanting to move), transfer your weight back onto that foot. Move back, C&T. Once he's OK with that, take a full step back, with both feet. Return to starting position, C&T. Gradually build the number of steps you take. Mix it up a little, so if he's comfortable with three paces, every now and again go back to just one, or streaming again. Set him up for success, you don't have to make things progressively harder each and every time. Build complexity by increasing distance and duration, turning your back on him, moving in different ways (to the side, for example, instead of directly back), going out of sight .... take it really slowly and you'll end up with a solid behaviour. At this stage, you want to keep training sessions really short so your pup doesn't lose focus. Train a release cue as you go along. When he's allowed to break the sit, use your word and slap your legs, for example. When he moves, C&T. Hope that helps
Re: Teach stay - with stay & release cue or just release cue? I also have a separate "wait" cue, which I use to get them to stay still in whatever position until I let them go. For example, if they come to a threshold I don't want them to pass without me, I'll say "wait" and they'll stop until I get there. To me, "wait" means I want them to stay in that place, but not necessarily stock still.
Re: Teach stay - with stay & release cue or just release cue? [quote author=snowbunny link=topic=9595.msg138511#msg138511 date=1421840684] First, start by "streaming" treats in a sit. C&T, C&T, C&T. Then, vary the time between C&Ts, so you may pause for a couple of seconds, then give three in quick succession etc. Gets the dog used to understanding that he gets treated for essentially doing nothing except staying in the sit. [/quote] I used to do this, but I don't now. I C&T only once for one unit. If I don't want the dog to move, I feed "in position". So I'd Click for one unit of the sit (say a second) then I would feed a stream of treats "in position" because I want to associate the treats with the position (typically though only if the position was a permanent place like a placeboard, otherwise I'd have the dog move in between reps). Then I'd repeat. The only difference is the multiple treats for one click. I would rapidly move on to treating on the release. I know this isn't what kikopup does, but I don't think she has it right. Shock, horror, how dare I think such a thing? ;D ;D ;D I don't think it matters unless you care about thinking too much about clicker training though!
Re: Teach stay - with stay & release cue or just release cue? We use 2 commands, 'Stay' is stay in position until I return. (handy if you need to close a gate or talk to someone without your dog) 'Wait' is wait until I command to do something else. ( direct to another position or when feeding)
Re: Teach stay - with stay & release cue or just release cue? I have to use two commands as I couldn't rel on everyone who might look after my dog to enforce the sit means stay until you're released. It was doing my head in so I gave up
Re: Teach stay - with stay & release cue or just release cue? Yes, I now give my OH completely different cues. He uses port (for left), walk (for close), get your ball (for fetch) and stay (which means just about nothing but he still uses it). If I catch him using left, close, fetch or wait I go a bit nutty. I bet he does when I'm not around though... : I caught him using "back" to get Charlie to run 10m away from him to start a catch game. Argghhh.....
Re: Teach stay - with stay & release cue or just release cue? [quote author=JulieT link=topic=9595.msg138556#msg138556 date=1421849492] Yes, I now give my OH completely different cues. He uses port (for left), walk (for close), get your ball (for fetch) and stay (which means just about nothing but he still uses it). If I catch him using left, close, fetch or wait I go a bit nutty. I bet he does when I'm not around though... : I caught him using "back" to get Charlie to run 10m away from him to start a catch game. Argghhh..... [/quote] I heard an odd clicking the other day.....Lizzie had found my clicker and the dogs were looking at me to say "come on, where's the good stuff?!?!" :
Re: Teach stay - with stay & release cue or just release cue? For Guide Dogs it's simple. 'Wait' is for a short time either standing, sitting or lying down, with differing release cues (Come, straight on, steady, up-hup etc). 'Stay' is always lying down and is indefinite until released. So I do the same with Tatze now too.
Re: Teach stay - with stay & release cue or just release cue? [quote author=JulieT link=topic=9595.msg138561#msg138561 date=1421850117] eeek! ;D ;D ;D [/quote] I know!!!!!!!!!!!!
Re: Teach stay - with stay & release cue or just release cue? [quote author=bbrown link=topic=9595.msg138557#msg138557 date=1421849588] [quote author=JulieT link=topic=9595.msg138556#msg138556 date=1421849492] Yes, I now give my OH completely different cues. He uses port (for left), walk (for close), get your ball (for fetch) and stay (which means just about nothing but he still uses it). If I catch him using left, close, fetch or wait I go a bit nutty. I bet he does when I'm not around though... : I caught him using "back" to get Charlie to run 10m away from him to start a catch game. Argghhh..... [/quote] I heard an odd clicking the other day.....Lizzie had found my clicker and the dogs were looking at me to say "come on, where's the good stuff?!?!" : [/quote] I got a lie-in this morning (J got up with the pups - heaven!) and I could hear a clicking sound. I was seething a bit in bed, because I know he wouldn't be using it right, and their training is supposed to be my territory. When I got up a few minutes later, I saw my clicker was still in my treat bag, so it wasn't that at all. At least I didn't go in, all guns blazing
Re: Teach stay - with stay & release cue or just release cue? Haha ;D Close shave, SB. I think we can all relate to that story! [quote author=JulieT link=topic=9595.msg138533#msg138533 date=1421843360] [quote author=snowbunny link=topic=9595.msg138511#msg138511 date=1421840684] First, start by "streaming" treats in a sit. C&T, C&T, C&T. Then, vary the time between C&Ts, so you may pause for a couple of seconds, then give three in quick succession etc. Gets the dog used to understanding that he gets treated for essentially doing nothing except staying in the sit. [/quote] I used to do this, but I don't now. I only once for one unit. If I don't want the dog to move, I feed "in position". So I'd Click for one unit of the sit (say a second) then I would feed a stream of treats "in position" [/quote] I only C&T once for one unit of behaviour too. The C&T comes at the end of the behaviour or the behaviour chain. It is not strictly correct to C&T multiple times during a behaviour. If you leave the C&T to the end then you can gradually extend the behaviour - withholding the C&T till the dog tries a bit harder (stays for a slightly longer time). That's shaping. Shaping is so much harder if you just keep C&Ting throughout the behaviour. The power of the C&T is wasted somewhat if you are using it to maintain a holding pattern. If you use it at the end then you retain the power of the C&T (or whatever event marker you are using!!) to motivate a greater effort from the dog. If you leave the C&T to the end the dog knows it has to persevere until it gets that click. Withholding the C&T will mean 'you are not there yet, try a little more!'. You will still get a result with the C&T C&T C&T C&T Release, but you're diminishing the meaning, impact and utility of the C&T as a shaping tool. But in terms of the original question of whether to teach a separate 'stay' cue or just teach that 'sit means stay sitting'..... [quote author=andreasjuuls link=topic=9595.msg138505#msg138505 date=1421839667] Trying to figure out what of the following is the best: 1. Teach stay with stay cue, i.e. tell the dog to stay until he gets a release cue? 2. Teach that stay is inherent in e.g. sit and down, i.e. the dog is told to sit or stay and supposed to stay until released? [/quote] .....either is fine but I think that #1 is easier (separate stay cue added on to sit, down or stand) for the reason Barbara said - every man and his dog will tell your dog to sit and if you are doing #2 that will stuff up your training more than if you're doing #1
Re: Teach stay - with stay & release cue or just release cue? [quote author=Oberon link=topic=9595.msg138670#msg138670 date=1421873462] Haha ;D Close shave, SB. I think we can all relate to that story! [quote author=JulieT link=topic=9595.msg138533#msg138533 date=1421843360] [quote author=snowbunny link=topic=9595.msg138511#msg138511 date=1421840684] First, start by "streaming" treats in a sit. C&T, C&T, C&T. Then, vary the time between C&Ts, so you may pause for a couple of seconds, then give three in quick succession etc. Gets the dog used to understanding that he gets treated for essentially doing nothing except staying in the sit. [/quote] I used to do this, but I don't now. I only once for one unit. If I don't want the dog to move, I feed "in position". So I'd Click for one unit of the sit (say a second) then I would feed a stream of treats "in position" [/quote] I only C&T once for one unit of behaviour too. The C&T comes at the end of the behaviour or the behaviour chain. It is not strictly correct to C&T multiple times during a behaviour. If you leave the C&T to the end then you can gradually extend the behaviour - withholding the C&T till the dog tries a bit harder (stays for a slightly longer time). That's shaping. Shaping is so much harder if you just keep C&Ting throughout the behaviour. The power of the C&T is wasted somewhat if you are using it to maintain a holding pattern. If you use it at the end then you retain the power of the C&T (or whatever event marker you are using!!) to motivate a greater effort from the dog. If you leave the C&T to the end the dog knows it has to persevere until it gets that click. Withholding the C&T will mean 'you are not there yet, try a little more!'. You will still get a result with the C&T C&T C&T C&T Release, but you're diminishing the meaning, impact and utility of the C&T as a shaping tool. But in terms of the original question of whether to teach a separate 'stay' cue or just teach that 'sit means stay sitting'..... [quote author=andreasjuuls link=topic=9595.msg138505#msg138505 date=1421839667] Trying to figure out what of the following is the best: 1. Teach stay with stay cue, i.e. tell the dog to stay until he gets a release cue? 2. Teach that stay is inherent in e.g. sit and down, i.e. the dog is told to sit or stay and supposed to stay until released? [/quote] .....either is fine but I think that #1 is easier (separate stay cue added on to sit, down or stand) for the reason Barbara said - every man and his dog will tell your dog to sit and if you are doing #2 that will stuff up your training more than if you're doing #1 [/quote] Thanks a lot. Will go with option 1 which will be 3 cues in total 1. Sit or down 2. Stay 3. Release Sounds like it can work, it's intuitive, and I already started it. However, not sure what the best approach to teach puppy this is. Any advice? Current approach 1. Sit or down 2. Show palm of hand, if he stays I say stay and if he still stays I click amd treat. Currently I'm extending the time between saying stay and click and treat Haven't yet added release cue but plan on waiting for him to move, then click and treat and say release. Then gradually move release cue before he moves and c and t if he moves All this seems pretty complex to do so wondering if there is a better way?
Re: Teach stay - with stay & release cue or just release cue? That is exactly how I'd do it except for the release bit. To do the release, do it in this order: - say 'release' - if he doesn't move then jump about so he moves - click and treat Once you've built up a little bit of duration with the stay (like, 20-30 seconds) you can start adding in foot movements (like Snowbunny described) and then build up distance between you and your dog. But when you start to add movement and distance shorten the time and gradually build it up again to 20-30 seconds, but with the distance component added
