Hi All So I have been religiously sticking to the 5 min per month of age up to twice a day rule (Murphy will be 16 weeks next Tuesday so will be moving up to 20 mins x 2). A lot of Murphy's walking is off lead - I either drive somewhere I can let him off, or we do the 3 minute lead walk to the woods at the end of our road - so most of his time is off lead. I just wondered in terms of this rule - is it set in stone that they cant do longer ON OCCASION? For example at a weekend, it would be really nice to be able to take him to the park with our girls - but they always want to stay more than 15 mins! So we are doing shifts. If we were out and about for example for an hour, but much of this was just mooching and not actively lead walking - would that be OK? Or would you never let your dog walk for more than the alloted time? Im not thinking about taking him for long hikes - but maybe on a weekend using his 40 mins for some time in the park as opposed to 2 short walks. What do you think:?
My personal view, and it is only my view, is that a longer walk once a week is fine. Juno started on our trainer's "balade educative" (doggy walks to you and me ) when she was around 14 - 15 weeks old. Although the walks were long, around an hour, with lots of running and playing I decided it was worth it for the doggy socialisation she received. Juno used to come very tired but very happy and she has very good manners when meeting other dogs . Missing the walks was one of the worst parts of her restricted exercise after surgery, for her and me
Personally, I believe that the five-minute rule is a guideline and most important when talking about walks where you are dictating the pace, be that on-lead or off-lead, or where you are walking on hard surfaces. If, however, you're staying in one place in the park and Murphy is allowed to mooch around at his own pace, then there is very little difference to being in a garden at home, so I'd have a bit of leeway. You must keep an eye on him though and enforce breaks if he gets over-excited or tired. I would still absolutely enforce the five minutes for being on lead, though - walking at a pace that they don't dictate is hard on their joints. Similarly, throwing a ball over and over is really bad for joints, so severely limit this.
I agree with Snowbunny. Treat the 5 minute rule as guidance. The important thing is to avoid activity that will put strain on Murphy's joints such as jumping, stairs or long street walks.
These questions just can't be answered - there is no evidence for what is ok, and what is not ok. You can get as many interpretations of what the 5 minute guide means as opinions on "which kibble is best?". There isn't even any evidence supporting the 5 minute guide itself. The only study I've seen is this one: http://www.nvh.no/en/Home/News/News...ffect-the-incidence-of-hip-dysplasia-in-dogs/
I'd also add that the five-minute rule isn't something that should be adhered to in isolation. To protect our puppies' joints as best we can, we need to ensure they receive minimal impact at a young age (hence not letting them jump in and out of cars, avoiding stairs where possible etc). Additionally, other than good breeding practices - which some people on here sadly know are not infallible - the biggest thing we can do to promote healthy joint development is monitoring their diet, to ensure that their bones don't grow too quickly, and to keep them at an optimum weight, which I've heard described as "on the skinny side of slim". Puppies are rather round when they're tiny, but by 14 weeks, I'd expect them to have lost that puppy fat and be looking nice and trim.* *edited to say, not that I'm saying Murphy is overweight - but you sadly see plenty of puppies who are
Interestingly, the study I linked to above, did not find a link between rapid growth and joint problems - it actually found the opposite. The slowest growing large breed, the Newfoundland, was more prone to problems.
From C.L.Fries and A.M. Remedios. The pathogenesis and diagnosis of canine hip dysplasia: a review. Can Vet J, 1995;494-502 (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1687006/) "Nutrition is a major environmental factor. Excess energy consumption increases the frequency and severity of hip dysplasia in genetically predisposed dogs. Food intake should be regulated to maintain a slender figure with the ribs and dorsal vertebral spines easily palpable, but not visible. Excess dietary calcium and vitamin D contribute to hip dysplasia in genetically predisposed individuals and should be avoided. High dose vitamin C supplementation in growing puppies does not prevent hip dysplasia, and this practice should be discontinued." I also found this (anecdotal) on a Mumsnet thread: "There is then a large unpublished study following pair litter mates of various large breeds where one pup remains with the breeder and the other went to a pet home, this found that in breeder establishments the puts had long periods of free play in large paddocks, but they grow more slowly as their food intake is more tightly controlled, they rarely suffer injury and even with shallow (dysplastic hip sockets) their hips are symmetrical. Pups in pet homes grow, very large, very fast as their food is less controlled, their exercise tends to be confined to short periods of intense activity each day, they often suffer injury and they frequently have assymmetrical hips making expression of hip dysplasia more likely.
Maybe I'm falling foul of simply repeating what I've read without backing it up as far as the rapid growth thing is concerned. Unless it's breed-dependent. There are so many factors at play, I wouldn't like to have to produce one of these research papers!
Or maybe I'm working to old data. This research (The role of nutrition in canine hip displasia) states "The role of nutrition in canine hip dysplasia is a multifactorial as the disease itself. Large and giant breeds primarily are at risk for the disease. Rate of growth, feeding methods, feed consumption, specific nutrients, and electrolyte balances within the diet have all been shown to influence hip dysplasia. Known nutritional risk factors are rapid weight gain and excessive calcium supplementation. Nutritional factors with less secure roles in their influence on the disease process are vitamin C, protein, and carbohydrates. There exists a need to identify further and control the various nutritional factors in the diet that influence canine hip dysplasia." ​But this was 1992 research, whereas yours was 2012.
thanks for the info. Thats what I was thinking really, that some of the time we would be sitting at a bench watching the children in the playground, or sitting outside the cafe - great socialisation for Murphy and I guess on these days I could just do the one "walk" to avoid the overtiredness - the way he has been hurtling round the garden as of late it is really hard to gage how much actual time he is on his feet! But Im gathering the main thing is not too much (more than 20 mins) LEAD walking without breathers - seemingly thats the dodgy thing.
I would just add that they are only young once; generally, do your best to give your puppy the best start because we can't turn back the clock and regret is useless. There were times that I thought Chepi had done too much and then I tried to be vigilant for the next few days but I did try to stick to the rule. Maybe I am too fussy though because I would lift her into and out of the car and used a ramp for the back door, rarely used steps etc. Now she is 15 months I am much more relaxed but still keep an eye on her - it's lovely to see her on a woodland walk running up and down steep inclines, jumping ditches etc, but I would have been careful with that up until recently. When I had questions like yours I would also ask the vet (who has his own gundogs so I figure he's reliable ) and I often got clear guidance from him.
How do you do that think where you can say who you are talking to...@snowbunny .....why doesn't that work? Anyway - yes, that's right, previous research pointed to the conclusion that rapid growth was a risk factor, but the large scale research of 2012 didn't find this - I don't mean it's right, I just think there is almost no evidence whatsoever on just about any of the risk factors. This 5 minute rule is the most bizarre thing, really. It has no evidence behind it at all, and then it grows into a multi-layered thing of whether it's 5 minutes per month once or twice a day, whether playing with other dogs count, whether it's on lead or off lead... and on we go. I make a point of asking every orthopeadic vet I meet about it (and I've met a lot now), and they just look at me in bemusement and tell me they have never heard of such a thing.
JulieT - just like that! Heh, it may not work on a tablet, but on a computer, as you start to type after the @, a little pop-up appears with a list of matching usernames I'm surprised that the orthopaedic vets haven't heard of it - I thought it was common knowledge even if it is an old wive's tale? I know you research the best people available to see Charlie, so maybe they just focus on evidence-based things. Like I said in my previous post, though, it must be so difficult, not to mention expensive, to research all these things comprehensively, because there are so many factors at play, and unless someone is going to benefit financially from the research, there probably won't be too many people willing to put the necessary time into it. Which leaves us poor owners floundering somewhat when it comes to wanting to do what's best for our dogs.
snowbunny - no, I'm on a laptop, it just doesn't work! I think the 5 minute rule is common knowledge on pet internet forums...not so much with vets. At least the ones I've seen, anyway.
JulieT , don't know about the UK but my French vet knew about the 5 minute rule as did my orthopaedic specialist. Interestingly the advice from my breeder was 5 minutes per month of age to a maximum of 30 minutes upto12 months of age, and only once a day.
Why can't I do the @ thing? MaccieD. Nope.... Well, no vet I've spoken to recognises it at all. I've had reactions ranging from "eh?" *shrug* to "don't be ridiculous" when I've asked...
