So here goes my second behaviour related post. This is something that I have been struggling with ever since we got Simba a year and a half ago, when he was almost a year old. He will NOT go outside unless he WANTS to go outside. I think there had been many times when he was forcibly ejected from his previous home as a way to "deal" with his behaviour. Perhaps they tied him up out there? Although I can't imagine that would have worked for too long, seeing what he is like when restrained now (leash chewing, howling, etc). But whatever the reason, we cannot get him to go out unless he wants to, not even for a treat (well maybe a kong or bone would lead him out, but not kibble or lower value stuff). This is not really a problem in the general scheme of things, seeing his high aversion to this (he will back away from the open door and stand 5 feet away, head hanging down, worried look in his eye) I very early on made sure that we never forced him to go out against his will. However there is one time that this is a huge problem, and it's the fact that before we go to bed I want him to go outside for a last wee. This is because often I have to get up in the night to let him out, and I am literally and figuratively getting tired of this. Now, it's compounded right now because of Christmas and the upheaval of kids being home, etc, it's got us out of our routine. But I would say even before this, a good 90% of the time he would have his last walk between 7-8 PM, and then head to bed, we get up around 7 so generally he makes it through. But not always. Hence I want him to go outside before bed to pee. But he just won't. Even if I go outside with him, like I did the other night (even this is not always enough enticement to go out if he doesn't want to, but it worked the other night). I ended up tramping around in the snow behind him (-10C temp and I had my slippers on) because he won't go off the deck unless I did, and as there are a couple corners he can go around and be hidden from me I want to make sure he's done the deed....he just thought I was there to play and leapt around and raced around like a silly thing until I gave up and we went in. Bit stumped on this.
Re: The Great Outdoors Sympathies.....remember my trials before the Summer trying to get Dexter to wee in the garden,not the same but similar..... Would giving him his last walk a bit earlier fit in with the family routine..... Dexter gets walked 5-6 pm then goes out at 9.30 for his last wee ( still over in the park : maybe I'm not the one to be replying! :-\) then his need to go to the loo might override his aversion to going out?.....I don't know,sounds like you can lure him out if the reward is high value enough but then he's not a dead cert to go....... Training a toilet cue?might take a bit more work with him being older but might be something that helps? He's not soft is he,this time of year I bet the cold isn't helping anything .......it's hard for you,he obviously has past experiences that are contributing to this...... There will be better advice than mine I'm sure,just wanted to reply to you as I passed through the boards x
Re: The Great Outdoors Have you tried upping the value of treat and maybe introducing a 'cue' word. We trained Harley to go on demand at night by saying 'go wee wee' and when she did she was praised and given a high reward treat. Now she will usually go out and I say the word and she will go even if it's only a dribble just to get the reward
Re: The Great Outdoors I'm not the one to be replying on this either! Charlie will wee on command in the garden but only because I go with him and reward him everytime. Yup, my 20 month old dog has never been to have a wee in the garden on his own. It does mean that the two days a week I need him to empty himself when I can't walk him before I go to work, he does. Mostly, last thing at night, about 10pm, I just walk him round the block though....so he can wee on the lampposts, which is what he really wants to do. :
Re: The Great Outdoors I'm pretty sure I could train a "wee" command but I have to get him OUT first. And you are right, Angela, it's very difficult this time of year with the cold. Hard to operate a clicker with mitts on! :
Re: The Great Outdoors My Lab has his last wee at about 5pm and then doesn't go out until about 11.15am or later for his first wee of the day! He doesn't like to go out in the garden unless I go out, but won't wee in the garden. Perhaps if you didn't go down to Simba he would learn to hold it until you got up at 7am?
Re: The Great Outdoors Is the out going through the door without you? All Charlie would do would be to stand on the step, so I'd still have to go out with him. Or going out with you? Will he go out into the garden with you to play during the day say? Is it just s night thing?
Re: The Great Outdoors Hmm. It's not a night thing. It happens any time I go to the door and hold it open for him, asking if if he wants to go outside. He either go to the door and sniff, and then turn away, or hang back, looking at me with deep suspicion until I shut the door. He will go outside with me, but only some of the time. It seems as if he suspects I really want him to go outside (to go pee before bed or to get him out of the way because we have visitors coming or have visitors there), he will very much not want to go out. If I attach a leash he might/might not go out, very much leaning towards the "might not". I hardly ever do that, the few times I tried when we first got him he would plant his front paws and absolutely refuse. So I have tried very much to make going outside a fun thing and usually only when he indicates he wants to go or I'm going out there too, to do some gardening or to play with him. Like I said, this is generally not a huge problem, except for this issue of wanting him to go pee before bed. And yes, I do agree, Stacia, he can probably hold it longer than I give him credit. Perhaps the best way to crack this is to attack it from this end, in terms of not giving in to his nighttime requests to go out.
Re: The Great Outdoors hmmm....well, I suppose my thoughts are: It should always be fun to go in the garden, so he shouldn't be left out when he wants to come in (it sounds like you are doing that anyway) You'll have to do lots of going in and out for scrummy treats - go out, get a treat, come straight back. Go out, spend 5 seconds out with him, get treat, come back in And so on.... Mega treats to overcome the initial reluctance, or clicker train it if he'll make any movement towards the door (but I know you are not keen on shaping, you could use it as a marker and so stop the lure to go through the door though). I think that after all this, which will be a very cold job, you'll end up with a dog that will go through the door. I doubt he'll move far from the door, and doubt he'll go have a pee if he doesn't really want one. You'd have to start over for those. You could try feeding him in the garden....really that's a summer job!
Re: The Great Outdoors Lisa, just a thought but could you hide some really smelly juicy treats outside for Simba to hunt for, maybe some hot roast chicken or something then maybe he will associate going outside with something delicious? Due to the deep snow issue you could put the treats in easy to rip open boxes or something ??? xx
Re: The Great Outdoors Definitely things to mull over, thanks. It is tricky in terms of the wee issue, as our back door opens out to the deck, so he has to go off the deck to go for a pee. So it's not just that he has to go "outside", he has to go out and move away from the door and go down the steps of the deck before he gets to the grass. So it's not unusual for him to go out but if he is not in the mood to really be out there he just sits by the back door until we let him in. I don't make him stay out there if he doesn't want to be out there. Likely this will have to wait until summer....way too cold to be standing around with the door open, waiting for him to go out. :
Re: The Great Outdoors Poppy will never go out in the garden without us, so I sympathise. I or OH end up going down the garden with her at around 10:30 for a last pee - but often she refuses to do anything. This really bothers me, but OH is made of tougher stuff and says if she doesn't want to wee, then she just has to wait until the morning... When you say you have to get up at night, is it because he is making a noise to indicate he needs to go out, or just because you are worried about him? In other words, is he really uncomfortable- or are you feeling uncomfortable for him? The other thing might be to push his final walk back by an hour, and then that's it for the night.
Re: The Great Outdoors It must be a lab thing. Milly goes out no problems during the day but after dark I have to go out with her and watch to make sure she goes. She does go on command but only when I'm out the door lol. I'm sure she is afraid of the dark.
Re: The Great Outdoors When Snowie was a puppy we could carry him outside for his last wee. He also knew to wee on command. As he got older (about 5 months) and heavier, we could not carry him. And come 9pm, he would roll onto his back to show he was not going anywhere! I would drag him out by cupping my hands under his back and shifting him out, inch by inch. When he got to the door he would get up and then make his wee. A friend suggested we use a treat. Don't know why we didn't think of that! Treats made is so much easier, particularly butter -- he will do ANYTHING for butter! At some point my husband (also made of stronger stuff than me!) said he just didn't have to go out, that was that, he would have to hold it in. And that is what we did. And he held it in until the morning. There are times when he wakes me in the night to let him out for a wee or poo, but very rarely (he does wake me up if he is hot and wants to lie on the balcony -- but that is another sleep-deprivation story!). In the morning the door is opened, but he will mostly wait till his walk (I think he saves it up for every lamp post!). I am amazed at his capacity -- he can hold it in for 14 or more hours of his own accord, door left open and all. Best of luck with Simba. It must make it a lot more difficult given that you don't know his previous circumstances.
Re: The Great Outdoors I only get up in the night if he gets up and is scratching at our bedroom door, indicating he wants out. When I do he zooms down the stairs and will run outside when I open the door. It is a bit tricky, not knowing if this is just him or if it comes from some negative experiences in his past. I strongly suspect the latter, but can't be sure, of course. Thankfully now that Christmas is over and the kids are gone, he is settling better at night, so better sleep being had all around!
