Silver Labradors are a surprisingly controversial topic, especially amongst Labrador breeders. Pippa has an indepth look in this article What do you think?!
I think the article was well written and covered both sides of the controversy regarding Silver Labradors. Before I state my opinion, I would like to express that I love all dogs whether they are pure bred or not. In my humble opinion, there are three colors for Labradors, which are black, yellow and chocolate. Silver Labradors are beautiful and may look like a Labrador, but they are not purebred Labradors. Depending on the Lab's breeding lines, a Silver Lab can make just as pleasant and enjoyable pet as a Labrador that is black, yellow or chocolate. On the other hand, as with any Labrador that may carry an undesirable trait, a silver Lab should be placed in a pet home without registration papers to ensure the fault is not passed to offspring. Many years have been spent by reputable and responsible breeders cultivating the traits of the Labrador breed by conscientious and meticulous breeding. These responsible breeders follow the Labrador breed standards to ensure the qualities of the breed are preserved. Silver coloration is considered by most ethical breeders to be a serious fault in the breed. I understand why they want to protect the Labrador breed standard and I am in agreement with their stance. If someone is willing to pay the same price or even more for a Silver Labrador because it is considered a "rare" Labrador, then that is their choice. Although many people buy Silver Labradors thinking they have purchased a purebred Labrador. Many irresponsible breeders are out to make a quick buck and they do not always state the full truth on their websites. That is unfortunate.
In the case of the 'silver' Labrador it seems obvious to me that crosses to Weimeraners were involved. The early ones are unmistakably Weimeraner in type. I don't have problem with new colours being introduced into a breed (which means outcrossing) as long as it's done honestly, in collaboration with the relevant breed club and with an emphasis on health/welfare (i.e. don't introduce a colour with a known connection to skin disorders). One problem with the 'do it honestly' bit is that most breed clubs don't have official mechanisms or systems to allow breeders to develop a new colour in a breed, so people do then try to do it by stealth. However I also do not have a problem if breed clubs or kennel clubs do not want to accept new colours. They are the holders of the breed standard and it's up to them to define it.
I have to say, having suffered from having a dog (that I love to the moon and back) with an inherited disease, I couldn't give a fig about the purity of closed breed registers. I'm all in favour of outcrossing if it improves the health of the breed, and I don't care if that means a new colour is purple. But I don't know what silver labradors contribute - I don't know if, health wise, it's good or bad. So long as it's nothing bad, I really do not care and good luck if anyone wants to own one, or owns one.
Agree with you on that. With pedigree cats there doesn't seem to be so much of an issue about an outcross to another breed to introduce a new colour, Abyssinians are a good example. They have gone from one colour to around 6 the last time I looked or researched and the colours also have silver varieties. The new colours aren't accepted when they first appear but when proven that the colour is breeding true and that the are no health problems, the Clubs seem to accept them more quickly.
We have been talking about this at some length on Facebook. I started out pretty convinced that the dilute gene has been added by a mischievous outcross. Now I am not so sure. What did come over, and what surprised me in the discussion is how the breeders that oppose silvers mostly struggle to articulate their arguments, and just how much interesting (albeit anecdotal) evidence there is in support of the view that the dilute gene has been there all along. I have added links to some of this on the original article There are some good DNA tests available now, and Weimaraners are one of the 68 (I think) breeds that can be detected using these tests. I would have thought that it would be a relatively simple matter to find a silver lab that came up with Weim in it's ancestry if there had been mischief - but this does not seem to have happened - yet. I think its a case of 'watch this space' I also share the concerns of those that have grave doubts over the sustainability of closed pedigree registers in the long term, but thats another story.
I find it interesting that dog breeders are so opposed to the introduction of new colours, or even outcrossing to improve health/conformation, when breeders of other types of domestic animals (like horses, parrots, poultry and also cats as mentioned above) seem pretty comfortable with it or even go out of their way to produce new colours.
I was looking through the links in the article, and saw that (it's claimed) the first dogs producing silver labs had litters of ¼ silver pups, ½ chocolate pups, and ¼ yellow pups. What coat genetics produces 3/4 chocolate (inc silver) and yellow?
Well, that's something I've wondered about in passing - not enough to research, I have to admit. But, how set in stone are those percentages? There must be some margin of error, surely? Increasingly so in small litters. Did it say how many puppies there were in that first litter?
There must have been 8 pups in the first litter as he talks about 2 silvers based upon his percentages. Must do more research on colour and genetics
There are a number of possibilities but one is that each parent was chocolate in coat colour and carrying one yellow gene and one dilution gene. The proportions are just luck of the draw.
I don't care if silver exists as a colour or not. They're not my cup of tea so I won't be getting one. What I do care about is the health and welfare of the dogs. As long as the dilute gene doesn't have associated health issues and they breed responsibly rather than churning out pups to satisfy fashion then they can do as they please.....
As a new member of the forum and having just discovered the Labrador site, through the article on silver Labradors I have just also found this thread and have to add my two (NZ)cents worth! I have read both sides of the discussion at length and find some of the statements put out by the haters as seriously misleading and untrue! Breeds of all species are evolving all the time, both in type and colouring- most for the betterment of the stock in question. Silver is not the only dilute colour-they can be yellow or black as well. I breed stud cattle, and have done for 38 years, I have also owned Labradors for upwards of 50 years. In the cattle world, and I'm sure with other species as well that after 5 generations of progeny from the introduction of a new line those progeny will have 93.5% of the original blood and are considered pure bred and eligible for the herd book registration. As for adhering to the 'standard' there are a huge range of types within a given 'registered' population-you only have to look at the difference between English show bench type Labradors and hunting Field style Labradors. Who looks at every dog in litters of registered puppies and deems them eligible or not for registration? Many individuals would never get a second glance in the show ring, even though they were registered pure breds and were somewhere near the written standard. Standards can change as type changes. Whilst there are several theories of how the silver Labrador came to be-was it the introduction of Weim blood in USA over 60 years ago, or was the dilute gene there all along, originating from the Newfie, Greyhound or other breeds which were allowed to be introduced in the early years? No matter what-the gene is there and the dogs with it should be considered as Labrador as all the others. As to them having health problems which seem to be bandied around, without any given proof, is the current registered Labrador population then problem free of health issues? I think not. One of my registered girls had elbow dysplasia at an early age-but her breeder refused to believe it came from his stock-citing diet and over exercise as the cause-despite another bitch from the same litter having the same problem. So here is where I mention I am the proud owner of a Champagne (yellow) girl who is now 9 months old. She comes from American bred parents, a Charcoal bitch EeBbdd and a silver dog Eebbdd. She may be eeBbdd herself as her pigment is darker than that of her yellow brothers. Her breeder came recommended by my vet as having excellent stock, great temperaments and all the genetic health tests you could do-which is far more than my earlier Labradors parents had. I wasn't looking for a different colour, and in fact didn't even know 'silver' labradors were in NZ. I wanted a bitch puppy, as company and to eventually replace my 12 year old Chocolate Lab-it all just fell into place. The breeder had a new litter, which just happened to be dilutes, and a bitch was available. As to those percentages quoted in an earlier post, one can hardly draw a conclusion from just one litter, as to what the incidence of each colour would be. There were 11 pups in the litter my girl came from. There were 5 charcoal, 3 silver and 3 champagne, from charcoal and silver parents. Pictured at a family reunion when 6 months old, the Fox Red belongs to a different litter! [/URL] My champagne girl posing at 4 months, with a pine cone in her mouth! [IMG][URL=http://smg.photobucket.com/user/SUEC/media/IMG_4556.jpg.html][IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v439/SUEC/IMG_4556.jpg[/URL]
And you and your lovely dogs were, and are, very warmly welcomed. The discussion was about consistent percentages (of colour) as claimed in a quote from an interview with Dean Crist - here: http://silverlabs.blogspot.co.uk/p/culo-interview.html
The 'champagne' colour is definitely different to a bog standard Yellow - it's almost a kind of silvery, lavenderish tint over the yellow. Fascinating to see a group shot! I guess we will never really know where or when the dilute gene first appeared in Labradors. Colours genes are quite unstable and are more likely to mutate than many other types of gene but I don't know whether this applies to the dilite/non-dilute factor. As you said, SueNZ, it is here now. I don't think that registers should be closed to exclude new variations in a breed. Imagine if 150 years ago all 'pure bred' registers had been closed.... We would have very few of the breeds or variations we have today. Another observation I would make is that in breeding animals, type is Number One (i.e. size/weight, shape). You can have a perfectly marked animal but if it doesn't have the right type it is never going to be considered to be a good example of the breed. Colour or pattern should always be secondary to Type. Based on type, anyone looking at those dogs in the pics Sue has posted would have to say they are Labradors (and much better type than many...).
I hadn't realised these colours are out there. I decided to see what was available. I have just found ads for pups in the UK. There is a wide range of costs: £190-£1,500 and I wonder why. I had written my point of view but deleted it as I don't really know enough .
Two chocolates if both carry yellow (Eebb) might give you a quarter yellow. As Fiona says though, you'd really need a bigger sample to comment on the proportions. Oops, just realised there is a whole other page which I didn't read - and welcome to the forum Sue
Welcome Sue and your gang I have to admit I'm not a massive fan of the dilute colours particularly the black and chocolate dilutes, I find them a bit washed out for my personal taste but personal taste is all it is (i prefer my standard yellows on the darker side too) and they all look like labradors to me and I'm sure they're super dogs!!
