I posted yesterday about the severe biting issues I'm having with my puppy Nugget. This is the thread: http://thelabradorforum.com/threads/excessive-biting.14515/ I'm posting this separately as a specific question - hope that's OK. Well, today Nugget has been as bad as yesterday. From the moment I got him up, he has been biting me and the children. I put him in a gated room again - the children have been told not to go in there at all. Every time I have let him out, he has immediately started biting me again. At one point, he had hold very, very hard and it was hurting a great deal. Something popped into my mind that I had read in another forum and I tried it. I widened my eyes at him, bared my teeth, and growled (or as near as I could manage). He instantly let go and dropped in front of me. It was incredible. After that, every time he lunged to bite me, I just widened my eyes at him and he stopped. After a break of about 10 minutes I had to resort to the growl again, with the same result (dropping to the floor). Each time he stopped, I immediately stroked him, chatted to him etc. It's effective and it's the first time in days I feel that I have some sort of control over him. But is this harmful? As I stated in the other post, I have tried every other technique repeatedly. They have not worked and he is not 'nipping' - he is biting. I'd really appreciate your advice and opinions. Thank you.
I'm not sure as although it's working for now, it might backfire on you but there again, isn't this what another dog would do to him, so I could be wrong. Perhaps look or think about what your body language is doing when you do this as dogs understand body language far more easily than our human mambo jambo.
I wonder if it is as much the element of surprise that's accomplishing this, as much as What you are doing? I know with my puppies I saved my voice, no yelling and no talking to them in a quiet voice without a good consequence for them. Then when I did need to yell (somebody was about to jump on a table and knock over a lamp, say) when I roared out HEY, they froze in place in astonishment; distracted and lamp saved. So the more I would do it the less effective it would become. Maybe the same?
I'd also say that he was kind of startled or unsure of what to make of this strange and slightly unsettling new behaviour he was seeing. I wouldn't expect it to be harmful...at worst he's probably just slightly taken aback. He's quickly learned that the eyes widening predicts the slightly more alarming growling noise and that if he stops biting when the wide eyes happen he can avoid or switch off the growling...and get a reward too.
I would be very cautious on growling and widening eyes at a puppy, or dog, for that matter although it is the sort of advice that used to be given out to dog owners. Yes it is true that mum would growl at him for biting too hard and give him a look when he was little, but unfortunately we don't have the same growls or facial expressions as a dog Although the growling may have produced a reprieve, and some treats for quiet behaviour for him, he may again start to escalate the biting because there is no doggy style follow up to the growling
I agree with Rosemary @MaccieD. At the moment nugget it still a pup and, like Rachel has said, the wide eyes and growling noise was probably a surprise/shock but if a dog did that to another dog it would be a dominant/aggressive signal so unfortunately although it works it's probably not the best way to do it. You said you put nugget in a gated room when he behaved like this. Coincidentally I was watching some Victoria Stillwell videos on you tube. She was dealing with an adolescent husky that had no bite inhibition and she used a similar technique to your gated room and it worked. I don't believe nugget is anywhere near as bad as this husky so there's no reason why it shouldn't work with him. If there's a gate on the room does that mean he can still see you and what's going on ? I wonder if it would work better if you could shut a door ? That way he's getting no stimulus from you or what he can see so it's completely time out. He only comes out when he's calm and as soon as he starts to bite/nip he goes straight back. Keeping a long house line on him to start with might help to move him quickly into his time out room. You must be consistent though and do it every time he nips without fail. This method means there is consequence for his actions. If he nips time out, when calm with you. He might quickly learn there isn't actually a consequence to you staring and growling. Dogs are clever like that. This is the video I mentioned. Sorry if I've repeated anything from your other thread.
I couldn't agree more with the advice you've been given, and more experienced members than me can put what I'm learning and reading about across much better than me. I'm a work in progress along with my 11 month old I found any noise I made worked for a day or once but then soon stopped working. The silent calm time out took a while but once I'd mastered it had the best effect and worked. And take time to breath. You will get through this, I found it hard to believe at the time but it does end.
I'm not sure about the wide eyes/growling...I suspect it might not work for long as the others have said, this was something new and it startled him a bit. This over the top bitey stuff is so very difficult to cope with, and as you have seen, many of the forum members have been in the same boat as you and survived. I know it makes it worse because you have kids and are righty worried about their safety. Often this behaviour happens because the pup is overstimulated and tired. Teething adds to the impetus to bite. Or, it can happen when the pup is bored and is trying to get his humans to engage in play. So...one question I have is are you having any other interactions with him other than the "trying to manage the biting" ones? Are you doing any clicker training on basic obedience (you don't have to use a clicker but it is a great tool)? Anything you can do with him to help him see that " biting is unacceptable, but hey, there's something else I can do with my people and I get treats too" will help you with this. Just thought I'd mention this as I didn't see any discussion about this on your other thread so was just wondering. Hang in there, you will get through this!!
I just came back as had a thought whilst hoovering, as I do To find @Lisa had posted similar. How does Nugget greet you and other family members? How do you and other family members greet Nugget? What games do you or family members play with Nugget? And what other training aka games (or should that be the other way around) do you do? I ask as otherwise I could go off writing a load of irrelevant stuff for you.
Thank you for your replies. Many of your comments confirmed what I feared about the growling thing! Yes we interact with Nugget a lot (when he's amenable!). From day 1 the children have been on board with the training. We never enter the room unless Nugget is sitting calmly. We greet him calmly with quiet voices. Clicker training didn't really work for me, but without it I have taught him to sit, lie down and to stay. He also obeys "leave it" with food. Unfortunately, when he's 'attacking' he's oblivious to commands. And the attacks really don't seem to be related to boredom - the other day he attacked me and my daughter in the park. One minute he was trotting along - not over stimulated in any way - the next he just turned on us. He tore both our coats and it was hard to deal with - nowhere to shut him! I just hung on to his harness as he lunged repeatedly. The only thing that stopped him was the appearance of another dog. I give him lots of opportunities to sleep, too. I have 5 kids and always found that regular naps kept them well behaved (well, as much as possible haha) - so I've always applied the same logic to Nugget. He has a good nap every day in a quiet room. The children respect this and don't disturb him. He then has lots of shorter naps throughout the day if he needs them. He really is every bit as bitey as Diesel in the video above - perhaps more so. Fortunately he's not as big! Still, he's big enough to do damage. Thank you for posting the video - I am working on following the advice now. And thank you for all this wonderful advice. It really helps.
Does Nugget have some times of lively play with you (you rather than the children - I think it's great that you've taught the children to be calm with him)? Your comment that Nugget was trotting along in the park when he suddenly attacked you made me think that he was trying to get you to play. Puppies do need some energetic play as well as walks and training. Here's a suggestion to try when the children aren't around, to do in the garden. (Every pup I've had has loved it.) Get an old soft toy and tie it to a 2m length of thick cord. Spin it around you, at ground level, or wiggle it along the ground and let your puppy chase it and pounce on it. When he's caught it let him have a chew for a few seconds and then swap the toy for a treat and restart the game. Repeat a few times. I'd say about 5 minutes of this game is enough. You're at more of a distance from those puppy teeth than you are when playing tug and the moving toy will attract him more than your legs. The idea is for you to instigate fun play times. And it will get better, honest!
I might be tempted to keep a line on his collar in and out of the house. Then you can always move him around, if he becomes uncontrollable and you want to keep your hands out of the way you can stand on the line. Leave enough length so he can sit or stand but not so much he can jump about. You might want to have wellies on a lot too (you wouldn't be the first person to wear wellies round the house while the bite inhibition kicks in). Hang in there and good luck!
Thank you - yes, I am using a line at the moment. Didn't have too much success tonight with leading him to another room and closing the door - he just started biting again every time he came back. Sigh. Hoping to turn the corner soon. But thanks again to everyone - it helps to come here!
Agree with the house line, it really helped me to feel more in control when I had an uncontrollable dog with collar reactivity! Hang in there. At the moment he is trying to play and get attention with the method he knows works - the negative attention and reaction can be just as fulfilling in the doggy mind as the positive one, until it finally clicks that biting and jumping really is boring compared to the other things he can do with you. I know you've said that this behaviour comes out of nowhere, but try to see if there are any patterns in it - after eating, or before, after a nap or before, a certain time of day, during/before/after a walk, etc. Maybe something will emerge that will give you a clue as to what is a trigger, if there is one. Keep supplying alternative bitey toys for him to take, and try to stay calm and as unresponsive as possible when he is doing it. Turning your back on him with your arms crossed at your chest as soon as he jumps up helped me with my jumpy dog. How long did you have him in the time-out room? You don't want him in there too long, obviously, but it has to be long enough to give him a chance to settle a bit.
Just to add - when we first got my dog at 8-9 months as a "hand-me-down" he would jump and bite quite a bit, especially outside. I used the clicker to capture any time he would run up to me and not jump - it doesn't have to be a clicker, you could just use a word "good" or something - and give a treat. It is amazing how quickly he learned that he would get a treat for calm behaviour. I would then try walking, then running, then jumping up and down and acting like a crazy person. Before he would have been on me in a flash, jumping and biting to get in on the fun. With practice and slow escalation of my behaviour, he ended up either just trotting along with me or watching me with a look like, "You crazy, lady, but give me a treat." My dog is absolutely in love with food, so a food treat works a charm with him, but other dogs will prefer playing or fetch as a reward.
@Calbury it would be great if you could keep us updated with your journey over the next few weeks. Especially for me as I am coming up behind you. Today I have started time outs in earnest, her nipping is quite gentle to be fair unless I am wearing a waterfall cardigan or something flappy and she thinks it is great to try and pull off, but she still does it a lot.
Jake is still biting hard but will sometimes stop to sit or when I say leave. Leave works well when I'm going him a treat, not so well when he is biting down on my hands. It's a work in progress I think.
@Sophiathesnowfairy Sorry I didn't get back to this thread - busy day yesterday with the kids. On the good side, I had a reprieve from the biting yesterday. Today, he's back to doing it, but yesterday he didn't do it at all. This 'day off' gives me hope that the biting is not a response to something we are doing (or not doing), but that it is the typical developmental stage (just rather on the excessive side). As I said, he's back to the same behaviour today and it makes me sad, because I SO enjoyed sitting and stroking him yesterday. I even managed a cuddle, something I can NEVER do usually. I'll post back here as often as I can with how he's doing. Hope things improve for you.
@Calbury brilliant I am glad you got a day off and a cuddle! Luna has been a lot quieter today and yesterday, I hope this isn't the calm before the storm. I was quite strict about time outs yesterday and today after any level of nipping so we will see. Keep us updated.
