Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

Has anyone any comments on The Dog Listener? Maybe this has already been discussed - sorry if it has. I had a discussion with a potential Day Care provider today who trained with her (Jan Fennell) and would use that training just to maintain behaviour at dog day care. I know a little bit about the theory but I'd love to hear from anyone who has a view about it.

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

Also interested to hear views on this...

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

I hadn't heard about her methods previously (other than recognising the name) so I just had a look at her website and read a few of her articles. Seems to be a kind and thoughtful approach based on observation of the dog's behaviour so I wouldn't think you'd run into any problems with harsh techniques. Seems pretty clear that she rejects the Cesar Millan school of thought. Was hard from the website to get an idea of the basic methodology underlying her approach - 'Amichien Bonding'.

I would give it a go with the trainer and just see if it all feels right to you.

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

Thanks Rachael. There are short films of her on youtube if you are interested in finding out more.

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

I have read some interesting 'critiques' of Jan Fennel's approach. I'll try and find a link for you,

edited to add, I believe that she promotes pack theory and dominance beliefs, but I haven't read her book and might be wrong.

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

Thanks Pippa, it seems a bit grey actually; I think she promotes the pack theory but my understanding is that its not dominance but leadership that she espouses. There seems to be a difference between the two. As I understand it (limited knowledge) the handler takes away the stress and responsibility that comes with the dog being the pack leader, by making all of the decisions. The dog does not need to feel fear (and therefore bark and become aggressive) because the handler is the leader and makes all of the decisions. The dog does not need to protect itself or the handler because the handler takes on the role. The dog has a stress free life. This is not achieved by dominance from the handler in an aggressive way, indeed the handler must remain calm and quietly in control. However, I think there is also the idea that play is ONLY instigated by the handler; sitting on the sofa is ok, as long as you invite it and do not let the dog decide when it can happen; ignoring the dog when you return home; giving a dog a short time out when behaviour is not acceptable and repeating this in a calm controlled way until behaviour is acceptable also seems to be a format.

I think it is interesting. You are never meant to be harsh or abusive but the idea ( I think) is that the dog responds to you as a leader and knows you have everything covered; it is safe. I like the idea of kindness and consistency that gets the results that you want. Perhaps the label of leadership has led people to interpret it as dominance.

Look at me, I know nothing! No dog yet! I just read a lot!

I HAVE seen clicker training, in a similarly quietly controlled atmosphere and environment and I definitely will be going to clicker classes.

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

I am now thinking about "leadership" and "dominance". To lead do you have to dominate? Is ignoring a dog dominating it? Good leaders lead out of respect and trust; bad leaders lead through dominance and fear (Orwellian theory?). There are leaders who have soldiers follow them willingly and bad leaders who perhaps through dominance, are followed out of fear.
Where does leadership become dominance? I think this can be applied to children. We guide them and hopefully do not allow them to push boundaries. We hopefully don't rule them out of fear.
Somebody stop me! I have gone into overdrive! :-[

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

[quote author=Jane Martin link=topic=6533.msg87565#msg87565 date=1402602058]
Somebody stop me! I have gone into overdrive! :-[
[/quote]

Maybe! ;D ;D ;D

Dunno, it all sounds a bit dull (all that ignoring and being so bothered about whether the dog has an invite to get on the sofa or not). Have fun with your pup, work on a great relationship built on love and trust (I think this is very important), don't reward bad behaviour, reward good behaviour, and it seems to work out just fine. And bulk order sea biscuits.

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

Forgive me everyone - I believe I am working this through via the forum. The pack theory seems to be out of date. Well, the new pack theory is that the pack exists but they co-operate rather than have dominance. Oh dear - I am confused! :-\

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

Thanks Julie !!!!!!!!! You are MY leader! I feel ok!

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

;D

When does puppy arrive?

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

I do remember one phrase from the Jan Fennel book that described the difference between leadership and dominance - it was something about "you need to act in such a way that, if a leadership election was called tomorrow, your dogs would vote for you to be the leader".

I'm not sure about everything in her book, but I really liked that one.

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

Rosie, thanks for that
JulieT not this weekend but next! Yee haa I am so happy and excited !!!!!!!!!

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

I find the whole debate around "leadership" and dominance" fascinating. Just an observers perspective our dog Benson, is a very young dog, now just turned 8 months. He is most relaxed and comfortable playing with puos his age or younger, he appears confident and carefree. Very different approach with an older or unfamiliar dog. Not that he is a nervous dog by any means.
The other thing I have noticed is this carefree and happy behaviour also applies to our neighbours children, who adore him. Ollie, the young lad, loves to play football with him, he is only 9 or 10 years old, Benson acts more like a puppy with them, when he sees them in the garden he can't wait to play I don't know, it seems he has an innate understanding of where he is in the pack so to speak? If that is the case, maybe this is one of the reasons why socialisation at a young age is so important, especially with other dogs.

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

The way you describe it, Jane, that's how I read it too. The leadership concept is different to the dominance concept as it's based on something you earn not something you demand by force.

There has been some work on wild dog packs (not wolves but feral dogs) suggesting that the dogs that seem to be leading are the ones that are calm and confident and have worked their way there through a history of building relationships with other dogs (sorry, don't have a reference off the top of my head but will look). So I don't think the leadership concept is entirely baseless as far as actual dog behaviour goes. I don't have a problem with it anyway as, put into practice, it's not likely to be harmful to the dog or your relationship with it. Maybe a bit more 'rule bound' than it needs to be (eg. I don't think it matters a jot if your dog jumps on the sofa when it wants) but still kind and positive and responsive to the dog in nature.

Anyway, that was my impression of it.

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

Thanks Rachael, I guess I am forming my ideas of what I think I want to work by and it helps to talk! I like the focus on kindness with rules. I like to hear others' responses as it is so helpful in defining what I like. Ta very much

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

I'm just guessing here but you might find that if the trainer has a particular theory that the training methods are based on then there might be a few more rules for the humans too. That is, you might be told that there is 'one right way' to do things, based on the theory. I'd just be prepared to go along with a willingness to question (and literally ask questions, which I am sure you will do!)

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

[quote author=Jane Martin link=topic=6533.msg87565#msg87565 date=1402602058]
Somebody stop me![/quote]

Now there's a candidate for a film quote question

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

Oh! I am beside myself - that I might actually be involved in a movie quote!
And Rachael's timely and philosophical warning about " questioning".
I want you all to live around the corner from me.

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

If thinking of your interactions with your dog in terms of "leadership" helps, that's just fine. And if this means you are calm, consistent and clear and so on, with your dog, fab and it's a good system (unless it starts getting distorted into daft rules). I really don't buy all of this stuff though. I honestly don't think Charlie has any concept whatsoever of leadership.

He is motivated by getting the good stuff in life - sea biscuits, cuddles, attention, play and so on - and avoiding the bad stuff (which in his world is the absence of the good stuff). I control the good stuff (mostly). So all I've got to do is work out how to communicate to him how he gets the good stuff.

Well, it seems that way to me, anyway.