Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

[quote author=UncleBob link=topic=6533.msg87611#msg87611 date=1402608580]
[quote author=Jane Martin link=topic=6533.msg87565#msg87565 date=1402602058]
Somebody stop me![/quote]

Now there's a candidate for a film quote question
[/quote]

If it's not on the official movie quote thread, can we google? ;D

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

google away Julie

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

[quote author=Oberon link=topic=6533.msg87591#msg87591 date=1402605443]
There has been some work on wild dog packs (not wolves but feral dogs) suggesting that the dogs that seem to be leading are the ones that are calm and confident and have worked their way there through a history of building relationships with other dogs (sorry, don't have a reference off the top of my head but will look).
[/quote]

Well I had a look but couldn't find what I thought I had read. I did find a lot about African Wild Dogs (different species) that don't seem to have any kind of social heirarchy and that work co-operatively and also some information on Australian Dingoes (same species as domestic dogs) which says that they don't even actually form proper groups but more or less live as individuals that occasionally come together to hunt when prey animals are plentiful - this info on Dingoes is summarised here in this NSW government article. So perhaps it is wrong to say that there is any kind of 'leadership' arrangement or clear social structure at all in wild dog populations (apart from offspring hanging around with the parents for a year or so).

Anyway, even if the theory it's based on is completely wrong, that doesn't mean that the training techniques are going to be worthless or unhelpful. I'm sure you will be able to decide if it sits right with you or not, Jane

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

[quote author=JulieT link=topic=6533.msg87614#msg87614 date=1402609276]
I really don't buy all of this stuff though. I honestly don't think Charlie has any concept whatsoever of leadership. [/quote]

No, definitely not. So what would 'leadership' be in a dog/wolf group anyway? Clearly they're not rallying the troops, or organising, or giving orders or striving to be the 'best' (I don't think dogs or wolves can do or care about any of the above ). So maybe 'leadership' would be breaking up disputes between the young dogs/wolves in the family, or defending the family territory.

Anyway, regardless of what dogs in the wild do, they live in mixed species groups with us. Dogs are hedonistic and do what they enjoy or what works. They avoid what they don't like. Sometimes that will mean that they do things that we don't like. If there are behaviours we want and behaviours we don't want then it is up to us to take steps to shape behaviour in the direction we want, and away from the direction we don't want, hopefully to the mutual benefit of us and the dog. Things work better if we understand that we have the means to change and shape behaviour and that we have to be thoughtful, clear and systematic about it. That is the kind of thing I think of if I think about 'leadership' with a dog - it's my responsibility, not the dog's, to make sure the relationship works and is a happy one and that we can all live together without strife. And if it goes wrong it's probably my fault too. That's what the concept of leadership means in my mind - taking responsibility.

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

It is my belief that you do not need to be concerned about 'leadership' at all. I don't think it has any relevance to dog training. If you like the idea of being a leader, that is fine. You are the one in charge of resources after all, and that is a pretty good definition of a leader

I would be a little wary of any training group or day care centre that bases it's management of my dog on one person's worldview or training philosophy, especially one based on out of date pack beliefs, if only because it suggests that the people holding those beliefs aren't interested in keeping up with the developments in their field. On the other hand, I appreciate that good day care is not easy to find and provided that the staff are kind, this may be your best bet.

There is more info on the whole dominance / pack issue here with links to evidence at the bottom

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

I guess I am just like a new mother. I don't want to do the wrong thing. But I should aim to feel like a mum of two (which I am) and remember the chilled out approach I had with the second baby.

Thanks for all of your views

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

Lots of reading there Pippa, thanks.
I have no wish to dominate at all; I am all for positive reward based training. Its just that this dog care lady strictly follows Jan Fennell and I wanted to see what everyone thought. I have decided not to use her, apart from the training methods (which she told me she hasn't told the other dog owners about because they wouldn't understand!) she also goes out in the middle of the day and leaves all of the dogs together. For 2-3 hours. It's a no-go isn't it Don't know why I was getting my knickers in a twist over it; I am all calm now

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

Leaving the dogs for 2-3 hours during the day (or even for a minute) would be an absolute no-no in my book and a deal breaker. I must've missed the bit where you mentioned that before!

You just want the best for your puppy and are into thinking issues through in detail. Both are good things

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

[quote author=JulieT link=topic=6533.msg87615#msg87615 date=1402609345]
[quote author=UncleBob link=topic=6533.msg87611#msg87611 date=1402608580]
[quote author=Jane Martin link=topic=6533.msg87565#msg87565 date=1402602058]
Somebody stop me![/quote]

Now there's a candidate for a film quote question
[/quote]

If it's not on the official movie quote thread, can we google? ;D
[/quote]

Google away

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

Rachael, I mentioned it over on the Day Care thread.

 

Re: Thoughts on "training" the Jan Fennell way

Ah, I see

Well, these are the things you want to know before you send your pup somewhere.

Incidentally, Obi's daycare people list on their website both Cesar Millan and Jan Fennell amongst their influences. In practice they only use approaches that are positive/kind in nature. But the listing of Cesar Millan did put me off using them for a long time. Couldn't be happier with them now though.