Good morning all We've had our beautiful Ruby home since Monday, and she is a delight. Extremely motivated by food! So we're having great fun doing lots of easy training basics with her. I just had a quick question regarding tug of war. There is a chance my husband will take her our with our local shoot in the future, or we may take her out to retrieve the odd rabbit on our farm. So will tug of war ruin her soft mouth? I'm thinking its a good game for her to distract her from the usual puppy nipping at hands and clothing, feet etc. but don't want to be doing anything wrong. Any advice or thoughts on this would be appreciated 8) Thanks!
Re: Tug of war? Well, gun dog people would say no to tug of war. I don't do gun dog stuff, I do obedience stuff, but I have still had to teach a formal retrieve for that (wait to be sent, deliver to hand at a sit...I use a hexabumper dummy). My dog really likes tug of war and plays it with us and any dog he can rope into a game. And yet he still has a very soft mouth. He can carry a whole raw egg without damaging it (we have ducks that lay eggs round our garden and he finds them and carries them over to the concrete pavers outside our back door onto which he drops the egg so it breaks, then he eats it....I sometimes intercept him to get these eggs and the eggs are never damaged). He also never chomps or presses on his dummy. He doesn't try to play tug of war or keep away with his dummy, never has. So, I don't think it makes any difference But you will get different views on this one.
Re: Tug of war? Heidrun will tell you NO! Don't do it! ;D I allow Charlie a very gentle version of tug, it is very gentle - he waits to be asked to take the toy, we just hold the toy and he is allowed to tug (not that hard), always wins, then always offers us the toy to hold again, returns the toy to us when we say, and stops pulling when we say. I honestly don't think it's so risky unless you are going to be super, super serious about the gundog stuff.
Re: Tug of war? Hi Julie and Rachael - thanks for your responses I think that's the thing - she is primarily a family dog, secondly some occasional company for hubby out on the farm, and thirdly, and only possibly, a gun dog. So I don't think it's the end of the world if we play a bit of gentle tug of war. I figure it can be a good way to teach the 'off' command too. We had a cocker spaniel before (and knew nothing of the tug of war gun dog rules) and he would release the moment you put fingers in his mouth
Re: Tug of war? Charlie can play tug so gently, I can play tug with my fingers (hooked behind his canine teeth) and he won't hurt my hand. There is probably a billion things wrong with doing that! But I've ended up with a super gentle dog, and tug didn't spoil that at all.
Re: Tug of war? [quote author=JulieT link=topic=5727.msg73022#msg73022 date=1399101232] Charlie can play tug so gently, I can play tug with my fingers (hooked behind his canine teeth) and he won't hurt my hand. There is probably a billion things wrong with doing that! But I've ended up with a super gentle dog, and tug didn't spoil that at all. [/quote] Lol! We used to do that with our Cocker too, and he was a softy ;D
Re: Tug of war? This is an article Pippa has written about the subject. http://totallygundogs.com/playing-tug-with-your-gundog/ I have never played tug with any of my dogs, there are plenty of other things to use as recyclable rewards. ;D I just want to add that a dog carrying eggs or being gentle when tugging its owner's hand is not an indication of a soft mouth in gundog terms.
Re: Tug of war? Tatze isn't going to be a gundog so we have always played tuggy with her. She has the softest mouth, when I give her food by hand I feel like I'm giving it to a horse From Pippa's article - which I find a bit odd - "Unfortunately, hard mouth can only be properly diagnosed when a dog is working on game. A hard mouthed dog may not rip or puncture a bird, but will often inflict crushing damage which can be felt by an experienced person as they examine the bird." We give our dogs chicken carcasses all the time for them to chomp on! Surely learning to carry game is a skill totally separate from either tuggy games or eating birds?
Re: Tug of war? Dogs have huge control over how much pressure they exert with their jaws. They can exert huge pressure in some situations and virtually none in others. They can learn when it's ok and when it's not. I find it hard to buy the argument that tug of war will make a dog more likely to bite down on other things (animal or otherwise) that it has in its mouth, whether retrieving them or anything else. They have better control than that and they are very good at learning when something applies and when it doesn't (the plus side of a poor ability to generalise). It just sounds like an untested myth to me. But I definitely don't blame anyone for not wanting to try disproving the myth on their dog If I had a dead animal I'd be happy to test Obi with it. My previous dog loved tug of war too and, at a gundog 'temperament test' day we went to once he had no trouble fetching and holding a dead pigeon with the utmost delicacy (and an expression of total disgust, I might add....very much a city dog). That's all the scant evidence I can muster where an actually body is involved. I know that one anecdote doesn't count for much On another line of reasoning... A gundog that eats a whole raw rabbit for its dinner will still be able to carry a shot rabbit gently. They must be able to as no one says 'don't feed a gun dog a rabbit or they'll learn they can also eat or squash the ones you want them to retrieve'. At least I've never heard anyone claim that. If that is not a problem I'm not convinced that tug of war is a problem. Anyway, that's my 2 cents
Re: Tug of war? Is it the statement about how hard mouth is manifested and diagnosed that you find odd Mags? Or the assumption that biting might be transferred from eating/playing to game? If it is the latter, actually, my mind is not made up on this. I have heard increasing reports from respected positive only gundog trainers, (including Helen Phillips, Jo Laurens) that playing tug does not cause hard mouth. And I have no reason to disbelieve them. I would now tentatively suggest therefore, that playing tug in a structured way, with cues for the start and finish of the game, is probably not going to make a gundog hard mouthed. Despite that, I am still personally, not brave enough to take the 'risk', however small that may be. Playing tug is not important enough or relevant enough to me. Whereas 'soft mouth' is hugely important. I don't disagree with your logic Rachael, but plenty of people advise not to feed rabbit 'in its jacket' to avoid dogs biting down on fur. I still don't feed my young dogs rabbit without skinning, though some of my older dogs now eat rabbit 'fur on' and I have had no problems with hard mouth 'so far'.
Re: Tug of war? [quote author=editor link=topic=5727.msg73037#msg73037 date=1399105367] Yes, that. There are so many circumstances when dogs bite down on things - I can't imagine any of them interfering with training them to carry game. A bit like a Bitch knows carrying a puppy is completely different from carrying a chicken she's about to eat! My niece's Springer is a gun dog and a live wire. He comes to stay with us and I'd love to play tuggy with him (I don't, of course!). My games with Tatze are controlled and with specific toys - I never just pull, that can't be good for the teeth - it's a side to side movement after she's chased the tug toy around with me dragging it along. I laugh because she is SO much quicker than me Oooops - messed up the code, sorry!
Re: Tug of war? [quote author=editor link=topic=5727.msg73037#msg73037 date=1399105367] I don't disagree with your logic Rachael, but plenty of people advise not to feed rabbit 'in its jacket' to avoid dogs biting down on fur. I still don't feed my young dogs rabbit without skinning, though some of my older dogs now eat rabbit 'fur on' and I have had no problems with hard mouth 'so far'. [/quote] Can definitely understand the sense in avoiding 'fur on' with young dogs. Best to set them up to definitely get it right, rather than risk doggie confusion. I really can also understand why people also want to totally avoid any risk of confusion in the case of tug of war games too, even though I personally think that that is different enough to the act of retrieving game to not be a problem (disclaimer - not a gundog person!).
Re: Tug of war? Thanks everyone - it's definitely a tough question with no clear answer! I think my hubby and I will deliberate it a little further! In the end, she is a family pet, but I wouldn't want to ruin her chances of being a working gun dog in the future, as she has some excellent working lines ;D Very much appreciate the input - very helpful from all angles
Re: Tug of war? I had to abandon playing tug of war with Molly. She was way too excited and would let go of her end and jump up to grab my end. It seemed a very good way to get bitten.
Re: Tug of war? [quote author=editor link=topic=5727.msg73037#msg73037 date=1399105367] Is it the statement about how hard mouth is manifested and diagnosed that you find odd Mags? Or the assumption that biting might be transferred from eating/playing to game? If it is the latter, actually, my mind is not made up on this. I have heard increasing reports from respected positive only gundog trainers, (including Helen Phillips, Jo Laurens) that playing tug does not cause hard mouth. And I have no reason to disbelieve them. I would now tentatively suggest therefore, that playing tug in a structured way, with cues for the start and finish of the game, is probably not going to make a gundog hard mouthed. Despite that, I am still personally, not brave enough to take the 'risk', however small that may be. Playing tug is not important enough or relevant enough to me. Whereas 'soft mouth' is hugely important. I don't disagree with your logic Rachael, but plenty of people advise not to feed rabbit 'in its jacket' to avoid dogs biting down on fur. I still don't feed my young dogs rabbit without skinning, though some of my older dogs now eat rabbit 'fur on' and I have had no problems with hard mouth 'so far'. [/quote] Should there be any concern for jagged bones, parasites, skin bots, etc.?
Re: Tug of war? Raw bones 'wrapped' in meat, especially soft bones as with a rabbit, are not a problem for a dog's powerful stomach acid Some wild animal carcases may have parasites that are a problem for dogs but I don't think rabbit is an issue. There are lots of articles on raw feeding on the main site if you are keen to read more e.g. http://www.thelabradorsite.com/feeding-your-labrador-a-raw-diet-practical-considerations/ http://www.thelabradorsite.com/switching-to-raw-part-one-is-it-right-for-my-labrador/
Re: Tug of war? [quote author=Mollly link=topic=5727.msg73219#msg73219 date=1399145034] I had to abandon playing tug of war with Molly. She was way too excited and would let go of her end and jump up to grab my end. It seemed a very good way to get bitten. [/quote] Ruby is easily excited too - I've had to ban my kids playing with her squeaky toy as it's all a bit to frantic with those sharp puppy teeth and flailing toddler hands! :-\
Re: Tug of war? I made the decision not to have squeaky or furry toys for my pup, when I get her, because I don't want her to learn that biting something to make it squeak is fun. I have very young grandchildren. I also have cats. (Just following the fur discussion)
Re: Tug of war? I can't remember who said it and I'm too lazy to read back to work it out but there are so many games you can play with your dog it won't hurt to ban those ones you're not sure of for any reason. Just for interest our dog Obi loves squeaky toys but won't harm a feather on our ducks or chickens (he does eat feathers thst he finds lying around though..). We had worried that his interest in squeakies would translate into an interest in ducklings (who are very squeaky) but it didn't prove to be the case. I really believe that dogs can learn to differentiate very well, but there is no value in testing that if you're not sure. Just find something else to do
