There is currently a petition on the UK government petition website calling for a ban on prong collars. This post isn't intended to discuss the rights and wrongs but to make the membership of this forum aware so that, should they wish to, they may sign the petition. http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/58850
Re: Uk petition to ban prong collars I hesitate a bit to sign this personally, but only because I don't see spray collars as necessarily being in the same category as the other devices mentioned. Which is a shame. Am I wrong in thinking this? Just curious.......
Re: Uk petition to ban prong collars Interesting! I think this petition is rather poorly worded. It is not simply asking for a ban on prong collars . The term 'anything barbaric' is too loose. And the petitioner has tried to cram too many things in. Whilst arguably unpleasant for a dog, spray collars are simply not in the same bracket as electric collars. If we ban 'choke chains' what do we do with 'slip leads'. Both have the potential to be used to apply excessive neck pressure to a dog. How do we differentiate between them? This comes over as being thrown together by a positive reinforcement trainer who believes all aversives are barbaric. Which is simply not something that we have a consensus on at the moment. Whilst I support and promote positive reinforcement training, this petition is not something I would sign in its present form.
Re: Uk petition to ban prong collars I think the chap who started the petition is just a London dog walker, and owner, not a professional trainer. It's also on Facebook.
Re: Uk petition to ban prong collars I did not mean to imply 'professional' - probably should just have said 'positive reinforcement training supporter'
Re: Uk petition to ban prong collars Thanks for that. I must say I wasn't sure about the choke "chains" either (given that I use a slip lead, and as a figure-8). Although I do think a choke chain is likely to be used by a whole different group of owners to those using a slip lead. :-\
Re: Uk petition to ban prong collars Well....doesn't a petition start a debate? It's probably a good debate to have. I wonder. If we said the benefit of these things (slip leads included) is a certain number of dogs with a better training result. And the cost the harm they cause (pain, distress - which could be tiny or large in any given situation). In skilled hands the benefit may be large, and the cost small. In unskilled hands, the benefit may be zero, and the cost great. I bet there are more unskilled than skilled hands around. It might be net positive to ban all of these things (slip leads included). Ok, hard hat on!
Re: Uk petition to ban prong collars [quote author=JulieT link=topic=5395.msg68010#msg68010 date=1397417664] Well....doesn't a petition start a debate? It's probably a good debate to have. In skilled hands the benefit may be large, and the cost small. In unskilled hands, the benefit may be zero, and the cost great. [/quote] No hardhat needed. Absolutely agree. Education, education, education. Or just ban smoking completely (yay!) and alcohol (boo!) ;D Debate is good....but we are mainly pretty sensible. Perhaps we should all just sign the petition to raise the profile of all these methods and come out at the other end with at least prong-collars banned?
Re: Uk petition to ban prong collars [quote author=JulieT link=topic=5395.msg68010#msg68010 date=1397417664] Well....doesn't a petition start a debate? It's probably a good debate to have. I wonder. If we said the benefit of these things (slip leads included) is a certain number of dogs with a better training result. And the cost the harm they cause (pain, distress - which could be tiny or large in any given situation). In skilled hands the benefit may be large, and the cost small. In unskilled hands, the benefit may be zero, and the cost great. I bet there are more unskilled than skilled hands around. It might be net positive to ban all of these things (slip leads included). Ok, hard hat on! [/quote] No hard hat needed here. If banning slip leads was the cost to ban prong and e collars I'd pay it in a heartbeat. I think it's unlikely that the whole list of collar types would get banned but then I would have thought the case for docking working dogs was pretty clear too but it was still banned completely in Scotland....
Re: Uk petition to ban prong collars [quote author=JulieT link=topic=5395.msg68010#msg68010 date=1397417664] In skilled hands the benefit may be large, and the cost small. In unskilled hands, the benefit may be zero, and the cost great. I bet there are more unskilled than skilled hands around. It might be net positive to ban all of these things (slip leads included). [/quote] Sums up my thoughts too
Re: Uk petition to ban prong collars Just a thought. Many, many things are safe in skilled hands and dangerous in unskilled hands (medicines, machinery, weapons, vehicles…) I get your point, but I worry about a culture of 'banning' things.
Re: Uk petition to ban prong collars Indeed. But there must come a point where the level of harm from something potentially dangerous in justifies a restriction (unless conditions are met) or a ban - on firearms, on the availability of certain drugs, on carrying a knife, on the use of certain chemicals and the use of machinery (including cars) without training or a licence. Would the banning of these dog training devices pass a cost benefit test in theory? I reckon it might well, yes (depending on the weight put on pain and distress to dogs, vs the right to do so). It's still very unlikely that the harm caused to dogs from prong collars etc. is going to make it to the top of a "must have" legislative agenda any time soon as the result of a petition like this. Or makes it onto any priority list at all, I would have thought.
Re: Uk petition to ban prong collars Once you take action to BAN something, you then need the resources and legislation to enforce that ban. I agree that too many things are blanket banned without effective follow through. A lot of thought is needed about how to deal with the after-effects.
Re: Uk petition to ban prong collars That's true - those are all costs. Sometimes, they are short lived, and the act of banning or imposing something means an altered behaviour becomes the norm. Wearing front seat belts (but not rear) for example.
