My 19 wk old chocolate male (Myles) has been quite the challenge walking. I thought we got past our troubles but he seems to be regressing again. My biggest problem with him is he lags behind and/or wants to stop. He also has a very heightened sense of awareness about everything around him. Frequently looking over his shoulder at noises, wants to stop and stare, head always moving around possibly skeptical about what's around. Sometimes he seems fearful (tail goes down when he hears other dogs bark) but most of the time it's just like he wants to watch things. A good portion of our walk is at a snail's pace. When he's like this he looks up at me frequently, which I have C/T for and he will take a treat but still walk painfully slow with body language that is always ready to shut down. I got him at 11 weeks and started walking him right then so he's been socialized to this area. He will pull towards all people and other dogs so it's not like he's afraid to meet them. I just can't figure out why he lags and seems to have no interest in moving forward sometimes. A couple of things about him... he's from show lines. His breeder did have to work with him before I got him as he was "unsure of himself" compared to the other pups. But by 8 wks she said he was fine. He's a friendly boy, loves new people, plays well. Seems happy. We've been in puppy school for 5 weeks and he's not as excited about the treats as other pups are which has made training more difficult. I've had to figure out higher value rewards. I've only had 1 other lab (field yellow lab) and he was the easiest to train. The differences between Myles and my last lab are almost like 2 different breeds! Ok I could go on and on about other issues but will save for future posts. Thank you in advance!
Re: Walking struggles It does sound like he is a bit nervous being out and about. Even pulling towards other dogs and people can, strangely enough, be associated with some anxiety (kind of like "I want to, but I don't want to!"). Does it matter too much that you are going slowly? I know it'd be frustrating if you are wanting to get exercise for yourself too, or just get somewhere this century... When you move on ahead does he follow you, or just stop? Is there any distance you can get from him that motivates him to want to catch up? Are these walks on lead or off lead? With the rushing over to people and dogs.... I'd try to introduce a bit of self-control into that. If he pulls, stop, and wait till he makes the lead go loose (or entice him back a step or two with a treat at his nose). When the lead is loose, continue. This will be very, very stop-start! But you don't want to let him learn that he can drag you to every dog he sees on the horizon... I'd also practise getting him to sit before he is allowed to say hello. Before you can use this in a real life situation you'll need to build a foundation so he can sit and wait for a couple of seconds in a non-distracting environment - like an empty area or somewhere with a dog or person far away. If you can rope in other people (with or without their dogs) to help with this that'd be great.
Re: Walking struggles Hi Oberon, he is always on lead (I can only dream of off lead with him, my last dog was great off lead but this boy is the run from me type!) It really doesn't bother me that we walk slower, except that it's usually when he's about to do his stubborn stopping thing. He doesn't do this the entire walk, sometimes he walks at a great steady pace without pulling or stopping. It's just baffling when we are going along just fine then he just will stop and stare at me. He doesn't sit down, just stands behind me staring. Sometimes I wait it out, try saying "let's go" in a happy voice. He may take a few steps and take a treat, but will then stop again. I try doing a turn around him, say "look at me" and show him a treat and he will ever so slowly and not eagerly take a few steps. On occasion what saves me is just someone passing us and going ahead of us. Then he has something in front of us that he stares at and will move towards. On the occasions where he does pull, I do the stop-start thing as you mentioned, doing all of the loose leash walking clicker training that I know of. When other people or dogs are approaching and will need to pass us, I've tried getting him to sit and take treats, but treats are not as enticing to him as obsessively staring at them and if they are close enough, pulling toward them. My biggest problem in all areas of training has just been getting him to focus on me. He's stubborn natured and not terribly treat motivated. We're working on this. I can see what you mean about nervous to be out and about, his body language suggests that he is just very aware of everyone and everything. A leaf blowing will get his attention (wants to chase it). One of the first things I had to teach him was "leave it" as literally every single thing on the ground was something for him to stop and put in mouth. He's much better now. He does all of his training sessions nearly flawlessly inside our house with no distractions. I have not been as insistent that people make him sit before petting him on walks, very hard when people stick their hands out to pet the cute puppy and will even stick their hands in his mouth! But I am a single owner and he is my only dog so we are somewhat limited in practicing with distractions. We will keep at it! Hoping consistency will payoff. Just been slow with this boy. I always tell him, "it's a good thing you're cute"
Re: Walking struggles Haha, I say that to my dog all the time I wonder if he just wants to go back home? Is he happier to walk in the direction of home, or does it not really seem to matter? It sounds like you are doing all the right things. Is there a toy he really loves that you could take with you and pull out when you really need his attention? It's great to hear that you have made excellent progress with your training at home. The obvious difference between home and the great outdoors is the much higher level of distraction and novelty. Although at the moment that represents a big leap for him, over time the outdoors will become less novel and more ho-hum, and you will be able to get his attention just like you can in your lounge room. What you see at home is a picture of what you will eventually see everywhere. One thing I'd do is almost re-train some of your exercises in outdoors situations. When we go to a more challenging situation we usually have to take a few steps back - making it easier in every other way (so, only asking for a short sit, or a very short recall).
Re: Walking struggles Well our walk this morning was just awful. We got about half way through our walk (literally just down the street) and I stopped to do some basic sit, look at me cues and he did fine with the chicken. Then I say let's go and I may get 2 steps before he stops and stares at me. I wait it out, he may start to walk again, I treat him for making the decision, then he stops again. But it's not clear to me what he wants to do instead. It seemed only luring and bribing was the only thing that would get him to take a few steps and I had to do his (and more pulling him then I should ever do) just to get us home (we have front fastening harness). He doesn't necessarily just want to come home because he also does it on the way home. Ugh this it's a terrible cycle because I know he senses my frustration. I just can't figure out how to get him through this. Curious if there are others put there that went through this and if he may just grow out of it. I've tried a toy but he was pretty unimpressed. Now if I would bring a big stick he gets motivated by that! He loves sticks more than anything in the world! Also on the way home, rather than walk, he sometimes starts to just jump up at me with a burst of defiant energy. I say no firmly and stop moving. He repeats. Do we just keep trying or do I need to take steps back and keep him closer to home on our walks and do some basic training in our yard on lead. It just seems like a purely mental and stubborn thing coming from him. I have no idea how to handle a puppy that doesn't want to walk! I will mention a few of his other strong dislikes for later posts - hates having harness put on (but seems fine after it's on). And he does the same thing with stopping with or without harness - is anxious in the car (working on baby steps) Sorry for the long posts on this one. This is my biggest issue!!
Re: Walking struggles I've never had this problem but if Myles likes sticks why not invest in a Kong Stix for your walks. Juno loves to pick up and carry sticks if she can. If Myles focus is on the stix he may start to walk better.
Re: Walking struggles Charlie used to refuse to walk when he was a puppy - it was the harness. He hated it. I ditched the harness and we returned to normality. Now, if he refuses to walk it's because when he does, my OH gives him a biscuit to get him moving again. Great trick. Fancy a sea biscuit? Just pause for a second and one will appear. I reckon you might have either of those going on...
Re: Walking struggles Riley would park up as a pup. I used to lure him onwards until I got wise to his clever doe-eyed puppy ways then I just waited him out(I even took a book with me once!) and he'd get a treat once he'd started walking properly again.
Re: Walking struggles JulieT, I will try not using the harness today and see if that helps. It sure helps keep him under control when he decides to pull though (without all the dramatic coughing and choking) I've suspected same thing on the treats. Might be working against us in this case. I try to time the treat with the moving forward but he was looking at me today as if to say where is my chicken. I've read a lot of your posts about Charlie as my boy is show line as well and not sure if some of his stubbornness comes from this (my field lab was a breeze to train). This boy is a challenge!
Re: Walking struggles Bbrown thanks it's good to hear how others have dealt with this! You read so much about pulling problems that you begin to think your pup is the only one with this issue. I wish he would just pull already, I'd rather try to work through that one!
Re: Walking struggles [quote author=Mylestogo link=topic=10683.msg158592#msg158592 date=1429796256] Bbrown thanks it's good to hear how others have dealt with this! You read so much about pulling problems that you begin to think your pup is the only one with this issue. I wish he would just pull already, I'd rather try to work through that one! [/quote] Heh, you may regret wishing for that in the future
Re: Walking struggles [quote author=Mylestogo link=topic=10683.msg158592#msg158592 date=1429796256] Bbrown thanks it's good to hear how others have dealt with this! You read so much about pulling problems that you begin to think your pup is the only one with this issue. I wish he would just pull already, I'd rather try to work through that one! [/quote] I've got a puller now in my spaniel and the puppy stopping was much, MUCH easier to deal with
Re: Walking struggles My friend had exactly the same problem with her black Lab, Zaba, at the same age. She rang me in tears "I got this dog to go for lovely walks and he won't walk!" I reassured her it wouldn't last. It didn't - he soon began to adore his walks and now goes for 3 hours or more and gets home asking for more
Re: Walking struggles [quote author=Mylestogo link=topic=10683.msg158591#msg158591 date=1429796066] I've read a lot of your posts about Charlie as my boy is show line as well and not sure if some of his stubbornness comes from this (my field lab was a breeze to train). This boy is a challenge! [/quote] I don't really know about the ease of training show vs field - my boy has most definitely learned to learn though and the difference was me improving my skills, it wasn't about my dog. I had massive challenges around mad excitement, and still do in a gundog training environment (dummies and other dogs working send him crazy with excitement) but, on the whole, Charlie will train for longer, try for longer without rewards, and return to training faster after breaks, than a lot of working line dogs. In an environment where the distractions are well within what I've trained for, he will stay focused for hours and stays keenly engaged, just waiting for the next exercise - I can do 3 hours 121 training with him (obviously with some breaks) and he'll keep going. So, I can't say my dog is stubborn, not at all, he is extremely willing. He is a mad, mad, bundle of excitement and energy though. I also think me struggling with his excitement is only partly his nature - I think if I had worked more on self control when he was younger I'd be better off now, and I also think missing out on a lot of training as a teenager didn't help. So, I'm not convinced he is harder to train than a working line dog - I think what he finds difficult, and what he finds distracting, might be a bit different. And there is no doubt at all that he is generally more confident than the average working line dog, much more inclined to go jump on new things than stand back and be a bit cautious, which does mean things like self control exercises are a lot more important, and ignoring him as a punishment has little impact (about turn walks not to be recommended unless you are in the middle of a very big, very safe, space, and walking away from him if he doesn't bring a dummy back isn't a great idea either). So, for me, it was about understanding what was going to work for my dog, rather than him being difficult, I think.
Re: Walking struggles I can't comment on the ease of training of field v show bred dogs, but Juno is a combination of both field and show lines with her lines coming from dogs from at least 4 European countries. She is a very easy, biddable dog who is easy to train and learns very quickly. She also loves to retrieve and shows strong field instincts which I'm planning to work on more when we are allowed more exercise.
Re: Walking struggles Have you tried driving Myles to an enclosed off lead area and letting him loose? If you were worried he might run away you could attach a long line but leave it trailing. I wondered if then he might follow you and you could play some games before a brief lead walking practice.
Re: Walking struggles Thanks everyone. Ok ok I will stop wishing for a puller Joy, that is a good suggestion and I will try that. Boogie, hoping this is just a phase same as your friend! JulieT, thanks for the explanation. I don't want to generalize and say he is the way he is because being show vs field, but I am just dealing with such different issues with this one than most other labs I know.. I would not say Myles is high energy, and most definitely not very willing. I guess it just comes down to each dog then and understanding what drives him. That's been the challenge. With him I get a lot of blank defiant stares when I give a command and I know he knows. He just doesn't want to. This has translated into our walks, so no amount of treats or saying the right words will break through his desire to just do what he wants. Thanks again everyone. I'm afraid you will be hearing more from me
Re: Walking struggles [quote author=Mylestogo link=topic=10683.msg158634#msg158634 date=1429804363] With him I get a lot of blank defiant stares when I give a command and I know he knows. He just doesn't want to. [/quote] http://www.thelabradorsite.com/3-reasons-your-labrador-is-disobedient/
Re: Walking struggles Very good article and a lot sounds familiar. I think he's highly intelligent, which has maybe led to me being lazy about proofing and having too high of expectations. Will focus on this!
Re: Walking struggles That's a great article and one I've read and appreciated before. It's very interesting to me how different my two - siblings from the same litter - are when it comes to training. I'm going to try to set my camera up tomorrow to video some simple stuff to show people; I think it will help people see the difference between how two dogs, brought up by the same owner at the same time with the same parameters, can be very different. Willow is sometimes slow to respond, which in a past life I might have thought was "defiance", because she clearly knows the cues. But now I know that's not the case; it's just I'm still figuring out how to float her boat. She's a delightful puppy and a pleasure to train and live with, but she's quite a serious little madam. Shadow, on the other hand, is an utter fool who is often over-excited by training and gets things wrong because he's so eager to throw behaviours into the mix without taking a second to think. So, I have a thoughtful but slightly slow one and a fast but inaccurate one. Neither is doing their thing to spite me, or out of defiance; it's simply a case of me learning (as a complete novice) how to get the best from both of them I think the realisation and understanding that a dog does nothing out of defiance or spite is one of the most therapeutic lessons I've had. There's no point getting frustrated. If they're not doing it, it's simply because they don't understand, you're pushing them too fast or the reward isn't great enough. Which means, in the scenario you're in, you have to go back a few steps. It's straightforward. Not easy, no. But straightforward, yes.
