It mentions in Control Unleashed about not having your treat bag on show because it's then essentially a lure for your dog. I can get my head around this when doing bits and bobs around the house, because you can simply have a few treat pots in different locations and get a treat from one of them after clicking. But when you're out and about, what do you do? I have a treat pouch that hangs off my belt, plus usually a little pot of special treats in either my jacket pocket or my training bag. The thing is, even with those options, the dogs clearly know I have something - to their eyes, I'm sure the training bag is nothing more than an oversized treat bag, since it contains tasty morsels AND toys. Of course, I won't be wearing a big jacket with deep pockets when I'm walking them in the summer, so the practicality of that goes out the window. I've taken to having my treat pouch at the back of my trousers so they can't actually see it, but these dogs aren't stupid - they know it's there! So, what do you all do? Once DH is back walking with us again (he's a bit broken at the moment), I guess I could have him carry treats for me, so I have nothing at all on show, but he doesn't generally come on our training sessions. I'm a bit stumped for a practical solution.
Re: Where do you keep your treats when training? You are going to train with Helen Phillips. You will keep your TREATS IN A TREAT BAG AND NOT IN YOUR POCKET OR ANYWHERE ELSE AND YOU MIGHT DIE IF YOU HAVE THEM IN A PLASTIC BAG. Just lettin' you know....
Re: Where do you keep your treats when training? This is a good question. A treat bag is definitely akin to a lure. In some situations (admittedly rare ones, like obedience competitions) you won't be able to have treats in the ring (and probably not a treat bag either). Plus, you don't really want the dog knowing when you have treats and when you don't. In a confined area you can hang your treat bag on the fence or on a tree and then, after you mark the behaviour, run together to the treat bag for the reward. That's what we do in our obedience training classes, to get the dog used to the idea that, although treats might happen, they won't actually be on the handler or easily visible to the dog. Personally I disagree with Helen Phillips on this one as I think that having treats in your pocket is good, as they are not visible to the dog, so you avoid the problem of the dog knowing when you have treats and when you might not (signalled by the treat bag).
Re: Where do you keep your treats when training? [quote author=Oberon link=topic=10329.msg151906#msg151906 date=1427230523] Personally I disagree with Helen Phillips on this one [/quote] DEEP intake of breath! No! You can't do that! It is not possible! ;D ;D ;D Seriously....the answer (that I've been trained on) is that you always have treats with you, in a treat bag, while you are training - properly training. As in needing to get your treats to delivery them effectively and quickly. You will usually have treats with you generally, and they might be in your pocket, on the table, in a treat bag or out of sight. Your dog should be used to treats being out of sight - generally. But since you are also using the environment to reward, and all sorts of other tactics (one is that the reward is in a basket and used as a distraction), the treat bag as a lure doesn't really come into it. My treat bag, or the absence of it, has no impact on Charlie. He expects me to have a reward of some sort...and I always come up with one..."go free" to jump in the stream is worth 20 sea biscuits...
Re: Where do you keep your treats when training? Looking back on this, it is interesting what you are training for - the ring or the field. Last year, on a clicker training week, we took the dogs down to some water meadows and the river - and it was a fair old walk and a long session when we got there, with much rewarding for calm when other dogs were working. We all ran out of treats. It was a bit desperate, really. ;D ;D ;D We shared the last handful we had between us around (we were working on a lot of behaviours). On the way back, every last student was out of treats and we played "reward your dog without treats". We were very inventive....I had no trouble at all, because we were surrounded by water. I could be dressed head to toe in fillet steak, and Charlie would still choose water....
Re: Where do you keep your treats when training? Oh yes, plenty of reward opportunities out there, other than food And...I do always carry a treat bag except for if I'm training in the house (have treats in a bowl somewhere) or if our obedience instructor makes us hang the bag on the fence (and I have to say I don't go to obedience classes much anymore since we started competing in Flyball....). So, I actually am a massive treat bag afficionado I'm contemplating putting Obi in some obedience trials one day (if I can muster the energy) so I guess I should do some more work on running through all our exercises without the treat bag. Maybe with Hubby standing outside the ring holding it (with a massive reward immediately after the last exercise). One other though....If one wears a treat bag all the time, but doesn't reward every behaviour (voluntaryily offered or cued) then the treat bag doesn't necessarily signal that a treat is always imminent. So I guess that is one way of 'breaking the power' of the treat bag as a 'lure'. Having said that, I do like to treat at an extremely high rate... Anyway, it is an interesting topic
Re: Where do you keep your treats when training? [quote author=Oberon link=topic=10329.msg151906#msg151906 date=1427230523]... Personally I disagree with Helen Phillips on this one ...[/quote] Blasphemy!
Re: Where do you keep your treats when training? I know. But don't worry, as I wrote it I spontaneously combusted and was simultaneously struck by lightening, so I got what I deserved
Re: Where do you keep your treats when training? Haha, this thread has made me giggle!! We're NEVER going to be in an obedience ring (for too many reasons to list ) so I'm never going to be in that situation where I absolutely, positively can't have a treat bag with me. So maybe it is a moot point. On the other hand, from a completely egotistical point of view, I want to eventually be able to stand up to those people that say my dogs are doing what they're doing only because they know I have treats (as if it isn't an achievement to train them to do something even WITH treats as a reward!). I suppose that, yes, over time, the rate of treating will go down somewhat, so the bag will be seen as less of a lure. But we're not there yet
Re: Where do you keep your treats when training? One positive trainer on facebook argues the solution to your dog never knowing whether you have treats or not is to always have them. She says if she runs out of treats she stops and goes home right away. That seems a bit impractical to me, but I think she is a very serious trainer and is only talking about a formal training session. Or maybe not, maybe she means she goes everywhere with treats. [quote author=Oberon link=topic=10329.msg151922#msg151922 date=1427236451] I'm contemplating putting Obi in some obedience trials one day [/quote] Exciting!
Re: Where do you keep your treats when training? [quote author=JulieT link=topic=10329.msg151946#msg151946 date=1427267010] One positive trainer on facebook argues the solution to your dog never knowing whether you have treats or not is to always have them. She says if she runs out of treats she stops and goes home right away. That seems a bit impractical to me, but I think she is a very serious trainer and is only talking about a formal training session. Or maybe not, maybe she means she goes everywhere with treats. [/quote] I have been skiing with my treat bag and whistle... dedication to the cause? :
Re: Where do you keep your treats when training? I am lost without my treat bag... Like I have to have my phone with me all the time, anywhere I go with the dog I have to have my treat bag. It helps that it's fleece lined so a good place to stick your hands on a cold day! (Maybe not if you have something extra smelly in there though!)
Re: Where do you keep your treats when training? My eat bag is a ziplock food bag, easy to pop treats in and cheaply replaced when getting past it's best. The treat bag resides in the animal food cupboard in the kitchen. when we are in the garden training the bag is in my pocket and I always have a few treats in my hand ready to reward. When going out for a walk the treat bag starts in my bumbag while driving to the destination, upon arrival it is transferred to my jacket pocket again for ease of access and I have a few treats in my hand ready. Juno knows the significance of the treat bag but isn't bothered about where it is aa she looks more to me and then the hand for a treat. Never used a clicker with her but we seem to have got along OK with our training.
Re: Where do you keep your treats when training? It is very difficult to have treats in your hand and the dog not know - even if you think they haven't seen you take them, they usually know. So this can mean you are bribing when you think you are training.
Re: Where do you keep your treats when training? I often wonder about this, but surely the dogs will always know by smell that you have treats on your person, even if they can't see them. I do shift them from time to time, as Mira will often respond when she sees my hand go into the pocket where she thinks they usually are. So I will move them to a different pocket, put them in my bag etc so as not to be too predictable.
Re: Where do you keep your treats when training? [quote author=Kirriegirl link=topic=10329.msg152014#msg152014 date=1427286172] I often wonder about this, but surely the dogs will always know by smell that you have treats on your person, even if they can't see them. [/quote] Yes, that's right. It's only a problem though if it becomes part of the cue. That is, that cues are only meaningful when there is a smell of treats. I have never had this problem, although have had all sorts of other things become part of the cue, usually a movement of my arms or legs that I was unaware of, I have never had the absence or presence of treats to matter. That could be because Charlie gets a range of rewards, not just food.
Re: Where do you keep your treats when training? Yes. Definitely noticed that hand going in the right pocket unintentionally signalled food treat coming (left pocket was squeaky ball) and make a conscious effort to remember gloves and avoid hands in pockets until she has completed the required behaviour.
Re: Where do you keep your treats when training? It is easy to have the getting food become the marker. Indeed, in one exercise (ping pong recall) the arm movement to throw food is used deliberately in that way.
Re: Where do you keep your treats when training? [quote author=Kirriegirl link=topic=10329.msg152020#msg152020 date=1427288171] Yes. Definitely noticed that hand going in the right pocket unintentionally signalled food treat coming (left pocket was squeaky ball) and make a conscious effort to remember gloves and avoid hands in pockets until she has completed the required behaviour. [/quote] Yes, that's a mistake I used to make fairly frequently. One thing I do is mix things up, which I hope is a good tactic. Sometimes my pot of special treats is squeezed into a pocket, sometimes it's in my training bag. I switch which pocket it's in. When it's not in the pocket, that pocket often contains something boring to the pups - maybe my phone, a lead, a sweetie for me ( ). So they learn that not every time I put my hand in the pocket does it mean something for them. Similarly, I keep my gloves and often a lead (when it's not in my pocket) in the training bag, so when I take those in and out, they see something dull happen. I suppose you can extend this even to my treat bag, because it has a poo bag dispenser on it, and I store my clicker in another pocket, so not every time I put my hand on it does it mean something for them. Of course, they're well aware that most of the time, any of these things does mean something good is coming their way, so I'm not sure "faking it" has any benefit whatsoever!
Re: Where do you keep your treats when training? I only bother about the location of rewards when I'm training something. So if I'm doing 10 reps of going to a placeboard and the marker stops being the clicker and starts being my movement in some other way (either before or after the click - eg I move my shoulder before I click, or he waits to see my hand move towards food). Other than that, the fact Charlie rushes up on walks to see whether I'm reaching for a toy in my bag (when I'm just getting a tissue) doesn't really bother me.
